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- Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:11 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399
- Replies: 19
- Views: 1306
Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399
That does seem bass ackwards, with solid plates on the inner thigh, and mail on the outside rear
- Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:36 am
- Forum: Armour - Design and Construction
- Topic: Could swords split Greathelms?
- Replies: 9
- Views: 3720
Re: Could swords split Greathelms?
Another factor which should not be overlooked is physiological. The "fight or flight" response, adrenal surge, or display of "hysterical strength" is not unreported in combat conditions.
- Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:28 am
- Forum: Armour - Design and Construction
- Topic: Could swords split Greathelms?
- Replies: 9
- Views: 3720
Re: Could swords split Greathelms?
The 1322 London Armourers' regulation, cited in ffoulkes, indicates reused bascinets were used, even among the nobility, at great risk. "Also, seeing that as well lord as man have found theirs to be old bacinets, battered and vamped-up, but recently covered by persons who know nothing of the trade; ...
- Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:56 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Cloth or Metal Studs?
- Replies: 7
- Views: 5201
Re: Cloth or Metal Studs?
Similar to the later St.Ursula jacks, perhaps?
- Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:25 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Battle between horsemen circa 1266
- Replies: 3
- Views: 2759
Re: Battle between horsemen circa 1266
The "1251" kicked you outside the "1250" parameter. I still have issues with the "first quarter of the century" not being 1201-1225. Librarians seem to run from 1200-1225.
- Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:43 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Battle between horsemen circa 1266
- Replies: 3
- Views: 2759
Re: Battle between horsemen circa 1266
The dating of manuscripts is often imprecise. Using the parameters of 1250-1275 for France brought this example. There are numerous others within the same manuscript.
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5454/18134
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5454/18134
- Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:03 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Why was the jack of pates developed and popularised when the brigantine was already in use.
- Replies: 15
- Views: 8041
Re: Why was the jack of pates developed and popularised when the brigantine was already in use.
I'm with John Vernier, seamstresses and tailors vs. armorer's guilds. It's like why turned furniture gets pins (nails) while joined furniture gets pegs.
- Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:23 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Italian MS Digitized
- Replies: 1
- Views: 7082
Re: Italian MS Digitized
Internet Archive is widely used for translations of medieval texts already, so many iof us are used to the format. Thanks for the link.
- Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:36 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Early Pairs of Plates
- Replies: 15
- Views: 15039
Re: Early Pairs of Plates
I had hastily posted a response this morning, but deleted it, to give the matter more thought. "Tymbria scurellorum" may truly be related to squirrel fur. Tymbria/timbria appears in later records as a bundle of 40 or 50 pelts, so may have nothing to do with wood or timber https://www.sizes.com/units...
- Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:43 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Early Pairs of Plates
- Replies: 15
- Views: 15039
Re: Early Pairs of Plates
Perhaps of more interest is the fact that the cargo belonged to German merchants. The common narrative being that pairs of plates originated in German speaking regions, perhaps influenced or spurred on by the Mongol invasions. This may point out that the language of 'par de platis' may not have been...
- Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:00 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Early Pairs of Plates
- Replies: 15
- Views: 15039
Re: Early Pairs of Plates
There are cuiries which are some kind of hardened leather defense for the chest. They may appear show up in the Maciejowski Bible and in some English effigies which Pavel A. did not include. Cuirie is the root of cuirass and chorassina so there is an etymological connection from these to later plat...
- Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:43 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Early Pairs of Plates
- Replies: 15
- Views: 15039
Re: Early Pairs of Plates
Here's a previous thread with two sources from the 1280s showing shoulder hinges. The likeliest explanation for me is a side-opening pair of plates.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=185968
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=185968
- Sat May 06, 2023 6:46 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Early Pairs of Plates
- Replies: 15
- Views: 15039
Re: Early Pairs of Plates
Pavel's thread on the XIII Century FB page is a good start. Whether the origin lies in the Baltic Wars or the Mongol invasion is debatable, but the geography of the early sources is consistent.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/xiiicentu ... tid=Nif5oz
https://m.facebook.com/groups/xiiicentu ... tid=Nif5oz
- Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:50 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Chains and Strips of Mail
- Replies: 6
- Views: 13559
Re: Chains and Strips of Mail
Is there a reason to think the fitz Marmaduke inventory refers to defensive chains rather than weapon retention chains?
- Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:05 pm
- Forum: Armour - Design and Construction
- Topic: Mail coifs & hair
- Replies: 6
- Views: 12505
Re: Mail coifs & hair
Some of the Wisby coifs use "Option B", a sewn-in lining
- Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:36 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: The Biquoque Helmet
- Replies: 5
- Views: 11956
Re: The Biquoque Helmet
Coque = cockle, shell, or hull.
In English, something which opens in two halves like a cockle, clam, or walnut. Sounds like what we would term an armet with two equal side plates, unlike the single door Chalcis helms.
In English, something which opens in two halves like a cockle, clam, or walnut. Sounds like what we would term an armet with two equal side plates, unlike the single door Chalcis helms.
- Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:43 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: The swiss hornblower with ears and horns on his head
- Replies: 5
- Views: 12044
Re: The swiss hornblower with ears and horns on his head
The horn blower from Lucerne doesn't seem unusual, but he's got no canting heraldic charge to draw inspiration from.
- Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:22 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Arming Patletts and Arming Bolsters
- Replies: 5
- Views: 10244
Re: Arming Patletts and Arming Bolsters
Partlett collars seems to be a common description.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/searc ... %20&title=
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/searc ... %20&title=
- Sun May 29, 2022 6:55 pm
- Forum: Armour - Design and Construction
- Topic: Metropolitan Museum of Art Contact?
- Replies: 1
- Views: 868
Metropolitan Museum of Art Contact?
I'm going to be at the MET at the end of June. Despite several attempts to contact the staff of the Arms and Armor department, I have never received any response. Blame COVID, etc. I was really hoping to get a few hours looking at mail sleeves which have no data besides a catalog number. If anyone h...
- Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:47 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
More fuel for the fire from Pavel Alekseychik
https://zenodo.org/record/6409308#.YkmHwrdOmxx
https://zenodo.org/record/6409308#.YkmHwrdOmxx
- Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:00 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434
- Replies: 130
- Views: 82498
Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434
I'm pretty certain "persed" is pursed, like pursed lips, i.e. drawn tight, puckered.
- Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:34 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: 14 c. Vilnius "Lamellar"
- Replies: 2
- Views: 1483
14 c. Vilnius "Lamellar"
Looking at the plates, I suspect a "mail and plates" arrangement with the plates connected by strips of mail. I know many others are more knowledgeable of Eastern European and Turkish/Persian armors, so am looking for other opinions. https://www.academia.edu/35868797/A_study_of_lamellar_armour_plate...
- Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:23 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: How to clean a mail shirt
- Replies: 6
- Views: 3576
- Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:07 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
How else to insure the peasants hear what you're telling them? ;) I'm used to vel being "either-or", but this seems to be one of those rare instances where it means "also this". The thorax may have been specifically vague, so that a variety of body armors, in addition the buckram jupons, would meet ...
- Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:33 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
From Facebook, another example of buckram jupons, this time from Bavaria. Mart Shearer, there's also the 1244' mention of collars in the Bavarian Territorial Peace, in the item permitting the peasants to wear to church "Thoraces vel ysenhut vel colliria vel juppas de pukramo vel cultrum latinum" - "...
- Tue May 04, 2021 8:37 pm
- Forum: Armour - Design and Construction
- Topic: lorica squamata
- Replies: 5
- Views: 1867
Re: lorica squamata
The examples you have shown use wire rings or staples to attach adjacent scales into horizontal rows. The scale are then sewn to the backing fabric through the four holes at the top, like sewing on a shirt button. Some surviving examples run a piece of twine along the row between the four holes, wit...
- Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:12 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
I found a few references in Philippe de Remi, Sire de Beaumanoir's 'Jehan et Blonde', from c.1240. There's an arming sequence beginning at line 3991 (p.260), beginning with, "espaulieres De bouree de soie, mout chieres", then "bacinet", some sort of garland ("galandesche") on the head, and then a "p...
- Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:31 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Felt Armour
- Replies: 41
- Views: 29933
Re: Felt Armour
More on nerves, as I questioned how to translate this.
1322 Inventory of Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, at Wigmore Castle (Ordered by Edward II)
v. capell' de ferro
(5 iron kettle hats)
j. capell' de nervis
(1 kettle hat of sinew?)
1322 Inventory of Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, at Wigmore Castle (Ordered by Edward II)
v. capell' de ferro
(5 iron kettle hats)
j. capell' de nervis
(1 kettle hat of sinew?)
- Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:06 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: The Chapel de Montauban
- Replies: 8
- Views: 1803
Re: The Chapel de Montauban
My basic feeling is that they would say "Montauban" in the same way we would say "Stetson" or "Fedora", that is, individual examples might vary, but a general form exists. Aventail still seems a peculiar choice for a brim, unless it's ventilated. Perhaps a downward sloping brim with a rounded skull ...
- Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:07 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: The Chapel de Montauban
- Replies: 8
- Views: 1803
Re: The Chapel de Montauban
Well at least we now have a description! The crest is easy enough to understand, but the aventail leaves me confused. Finding contemporary art might help.
- Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:02 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
Among these, almost everyone agrees that aketon is derived from the Arabic word for cotton, and jupon from the Arabic men's gown the jubbah. Pourpoint from French via Latin meaning pricked with a needle is home-grown. The wambeis/gambesons has two schools of thought, the first suggesting it comes fr...
- Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:38 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
I still wonder with the "sive" usually being an either/or proposition if the gambesatas (or gamboissed tunics) are not a separate, but functionally equivalent item to the gambeson, or should I be reading "sive" as aka?
- Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:26 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
- Replies: 174
- Views: 97372
Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350
Further, from the same XIII century European Armour FB thread, Nath dos Reis wrote, The oldest mention for the word "gamboised" under a hauberk is 1211 in Gui de Bourgogne. "La coiffe de l'auberc li rompi et faussa et puis le ganbison, si qu'el chief le navra" The coif of the hauberk was torn and cu...
- Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:14 pm
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Challenge of the Viscount of Rohan to Signeur of Beaumanoir, 1309
- Replies: 6
- Views: 2011
Re: Challenge of the Viscount of Rohan to Signeur of Beaumanoir, 1309
If I am correct that this entire phrase belongs together, I think it limits the construction. stivelez de plates garnis de teles & de fer & d'acier, ou de l'un ou de l'autre, & de bourre de saye & de coton a souffere Boots of plates (complete with cloth) of iron/steel, either the one or the other, w...
- Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:41 am
- Forum: Historical Research
- Topic: Challenge of the Viscount of Rohan to Signeur of Beaumanoir, 1309
- Replies: 6
- Views: 2011
Re: Challenge of the Viscount of Rohan to Signeur of Beaumanoir, 1309
Merrick tackled the goceons in the Inquiry , where he considers it an aventail, without justification or explanation. A Google search for "goceons" brings back publications from 1707 onwards, though I can't read them on this screen. Perhaps it appears in another document for added context? Perhaps a...