Coming back briefly (it was all getting a little too heated and personal for me to be bothered with), and please excuse me wandering back to some old points, I've not been keeping up to date with the discussion. As I said before (please excuse the repitition), it seems to me that even within the con...

I have looked carefully, thanks, and my interpretation is that she has a neck-kerchief - is that what you're interpreting as the collar? I'm not defending any preconception, I'm happy for pin-on sleeves to be debunked, but your argument is unsupported and needs developing in order to answer anything...

But 1515 is just as comprable to 1470 as 1455 is. There was no massive change because the calendar jumped to 1500 - oh yes, the Tudors came in and suddenly the world was enlightened - ha! Nice picture (the stained glass), but as Charlotte herself admits, there isn't a way of telling whether this is ...

Oh, I missed the jack analogy the first time round - very good.

Indeed! Ah, the Howard Household Accounts - such a valuable resource so rarely used.

OK. You dismiss the pictures that you see as unclear or 'dubious'. You then use the argument that we don't know if some of the pictures you do use are long sleeved gowns worn over short sleeved kirtles or not, yet this is essentially what you are basing your argument on - that the long sleeved dress...

I think you're missing the point here, Charlotte. Whilst I agree with the arguments from Chef and Grimstone against the validity of your argument (from a robust academic standpoint), there is a much simpler counter-argument. Terminology is all a bit complicated as different garments are called diffe...

Charlotte, My feelings on this are that some (most) of the long sleeved variants are actually gowns being worn over a kirtle. This is quite clear in some as there is evidence of a coloured layer underneath rather than a linen smock. I'm not saying that there were no long sleeved kirtles, but that a ...

OK, my thoughts on this one. Civilian points were most commonly made from leather, not braided silk. Documented purchases of silk points are of relatively expensive items (but this could be because the accounts are for high-status people). Where colour is specified they are either single colour, or ...