The Armour Archive

Klaus the Red

It appears to be a cervelliere or iron skullcap of some sort over a quilted coif.

Klaus the Red

OK, then forget I said that. I'm thinking specifically of reenactments of historical events for the benefit of the court. Royal dinner theater, if you will.

PS- actually, you will note that the title of the thread also includes 'performance art.' Make of that what you will.

Klaus the Red

Jehan, what's the target audience for the proposed play? I have only a very general sense of medieval drama myself, but I seem to recall at least one 14th century illumination of a drama being performed at an English or French royal banquet, reenacting the seige of Jerusalem from the 1st crusade or ...

Klaus the Red

That helmet is bloody brilliant. It looks like the "before" shot, circa 1400, of its Churburg ancestor. Bravo.

Klaus

Klaus the Red

What was it Dr. Williams called it? "Medieval crap metal." Or to mangle it in the language of choice... mittelalterisch scheissmetall.

Klaus

Klaus the Red

Here's our Welshman...

Klaus the Red

Good stuff.... I'm seeing two small buckles, on the first and third rows of the mail, and in the front, no less. So much for my previous assumption.

I think I'll start a new thread when I post the Welsh picture, since this discussion is starting to veer pretty far off the original topic.

Klaus the Red

I found another very promising one in Osprey Campaign no. 138: Poitiers 1356. It's a 14th century Welsh effigy with, to quote the caption, "...a thickly quilted gambeson over a mail hauberk, a separate maile colliÃƒÂ©re and a simple cerveliÃƒÂ©re helmet." The photo is not a great angle, but unless h...

Klaus the Red

This image also appears in slightly clearer (albeit black and white) form on page 25 of Osprey's Campaign 138: Poitiers 1356. It's most notable to me that all the knights are wearing unusual segmented cuisses, showing at least 3 or 4 lames each above the knee.

Klaus the Red

Oh, no arguements there, but since they are almost certainly going to be in the back, we'll never see one in any of these front-only effigies and sculptures. We'll need to stumble across a free-standing figure with a standard but no helmet for our proof. Can you reduce the width of your image so it ...

Klaus the Red

Did you happen to see if there were any straps/buckles depicted on the collar? I don't believe there were, or I would have sketched them at the time- I was pretty interested in the collar but I only drew the front. I believe the back of the statue was a little lacking in detail anyway since it had ...

Klaus the Red

PM sent.

Klaus the Red

And -- I sh*t you not, boys and girls -- the Bunnykin version of Sir Gawain holds the disembodied Bunnykin head of the Green Knight. Hah!)

...and yet his helm beareth not a furrysoun!

Klaus the Red

The Green Knight edition is dated to 1400- what is the earliest known appearance of the orle on a bascinet? My sense is you don't start seeing them until around the time of Agincourt in 1415.

K

Klaus the Red

I'd be happy to buy the sugarloaf right now at that price, regardless of gauge. If I can't wear it, it'll still make for a nice bit of heraldic display with a torse and mantle.

Klaus

Klaus the Red

Stretchin' here, but any chance the word vrysoun (urison?) would be related to the term caparison?

K

Klaus the Red

I believe Hohenklingen has an aventail cover, not a padding-only aventail, and that the dags of mail below are the edges of the aventail itself. My gut feeling is that a textile defense would have been insufficient for such a vulnerable region (with or without any sort of standard to back it up), an...

Klaus the Red

If you have a female tent, yeah. I'm not sleeping anywhere near those loud snorers known as men! Guilty as charged, but Zil and I both have to sleep with earplugs and my money's on her for loud. I'm beginning to suspect that I married some sort of enchanted changeling who turns into a chainsaw at m...

Klaus the Red

And those bits on the shoulders are definitely mail and not plate spaulders? If so, then yes, that sure looks like a mantle to me. And it looks as though this sculptor did make the edge of the surcoat overlap the collar. Is the image high-enough resolution for you to post a decent close-up of just t...

Klaus the Red

St. Quirinus by Heinrich IV Parler, Baumberg sandstone, 26 3/8" tall, 1378-81, from the south tower of Cologne Cathedral.

Klaus the Red

I don't think you guys are splitting this hair fine enough. Nooo! Must... make... sword...sharper... to split hairs better! Why is it hard to believe that a mail standard might be added beneath a mail aventail? Having had padded spears slide under my aventail more than once, I'm bloody well a belie...

Klaus the Red

OK, you've missed my point again. I'm not disputing your argument that a collar without mantle is more vulnerable, nor that it doesn't make as much armoring sense as an extension of the shirt. All I'm saying is there is VISUAL EVIDENCE THAT THESE MIGHT REPRESENT SOME SORT OF FREE-STANDING MAIL COLLA...

Klaus the Red

The point I am trying to make with the details is that I am seeing, pretty clearly, a depiction of mail over the jupon instead of vice versa- in this particular case. And possibly in other cases as well. I don't take any offense at your arguing the contrary position by pointing out the lack of evide...

Klaus the Red

Two of them could fly in tandem and grip it by the husk!

Klaus the Red

The reason for that is that without this mantle it would be much too easy to slip a blade in under the edge of the mail and cut the neck. That makes sense, but wouldn't the 15th century style tend to be worn with a sallet, whereas the 14th century would have a bascinet with camail, possibly with th...

Klaus the Red

If the mail does go over the outer garment, it would need to show a much larger 'mantle' to be a separate standard. I disagree- I think if lined in heavy leather, this would still stand alone. And this really does look like it's on top of the jupon rather than vice versa. Notice the way the bottom ...

Klaus the Red

When I built the stand for my Pexto plate, on the advice of one of my armoring mentors, I made the height so that the average stake head ended up on a level that was at the bottom of my hammer stroke from a seated position, which is about waist level. This means I get the most efficient use of the a...

Klaus the Red

3. Another garment, appearing unquilted and unpadded, coming well short of the end of the vambraces. It is also closed with buttons, larger than those on the shirt. 4. The top layer is a lentner type garment with very baggy, long sleeves. In my opinion, the outer set of cuffs and the baggy sleeves ...

Klaus the Red

Oh, good stuff. I've seen a couple of other occurences of the "mail braes", but that's the first one showing the crotch coverage (pardon the vulgarity). I wonder if these wrap all the way around or are attached to a leather/cloth seat of some sort? They must have been uncomfortable to ride in otherw...

Klaus the Red

Erik, can you post that image? I don't have it in my archive. ...and just when I was dead secure in my position that buttons under fitted steel vambraces just don't work, there's this cat... look closely at his wrists. I really dig his entire harness, frankly... he looks more English than German. An...

Klaus the Red

You about ready to move out west?

Yesterday, my wife glanced up at the calendar and exclaimed, "Holy crap, it's April Fool's day already? I don't think I'll be defending my thesis on May 1..."

So... not quite yet. Maybe early June-ish.

Klaus the Red

I think a pair of carts that can be broken down could be made relatively cheaply, and serve almost all purposes well.

Ooh! Ooh! Can we have a "bring out yer dead" cart??

(I just saw "Spamalot" the other week.)

K

Klaus the Red

Your second two photos seem to not have loaded (no skin off my nose, I know exactly what they look like anyway).

Klaus the Red

The surviving padded garments in Lyon and Chartres, by the way, do not seem to have been worn with armour. The Charles de Blois garment in Lyons is most likely not a military garment- the fabric is too nice and it has too many buttons on the sleeves to have had arm harness worn over it, and the sle...

Klaus the Red

...and I thought I had a polishing fetish.

Nice.