The Armour Archive

Ernst

One of the issues I always have with the Maciejowski images is the stitching lines on the collar running horizontally. These manuscripts from c. 1260 - 1270 seems to show the quilting line vertically, though they change direction at the cuffs. http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3982 ...

Ernst

In the "Scottish jacks" thread, there were regulations calling for knee length or sleeved jacks if no leg or arm harness was available. Could it be that an attached collar was used when the gambeson was the sole body armor, while there is no collar on the versions used by men who wore mail (and pres...

Ernst

Yes, but I mean attached collars, not neck protection afforded by the coif.

Ernst

Here's one of those rarely noted images. Although the Maciejowski Bible (Morgan M.638) has a number of online copies, these two figures fall at the top of folio 24 recto. Because they're "outside the box" of the frame, they don't usually get copied. Fortunately the Morgan has the manuscript online w...

Ernst

Looking sharp, Ian.

Don't purchase account for the points usually specify silk? Is this because silk doesn't stretch, or because of it's resistance to breaking or cutting?

Ernst

You reduce to the absurd, almost as much as I do! :wink: Maybe that's why we butt heads? Dan is usually much more precise in his language, while I tend to over-generalize. Without trying to be too much of a piss-ant pedant, I'll offer some thoughts on how to better express your thesis, though I real...

Ernst

1304 Accounts, Feast of Ascension (Easter +40 days) to Toussaint (November 1), of Mahaut, Countess of Artois https://archive.org/details/documentsetextra01deha Pour iiii escus , x sols l'escu , xl sols ; pour le cuir dez brachieres,ii sols; pour iiii hiaumes a louage pris a Adam le haumier, et pour ...

Ernst

Randall and I were discussing the 1302 inventory of Raoul de Clermont-Nesle, Constable of France, on a Facebook group. Raoul was KIA at Courtrai in 1302 when in his 50s, so much of the armor not taken with him and his retainers might well date to the late 13th century. https://books.google.com/books...

Ernst

Wouldn't the hole from such a bit show quite a bit of reaming around the edges?

Ernst

Alexander the Great's breastplate on fo. 147r -

: ONB Cod. 3062 fo147r-Alxndr.jpg (90.91 KiB) Viewed 1528 times

Ernst

The 1302 inventory of Raoul de Nesle, Constable of France, killed at Courtai in the Battle of the Golden Spurs contains

Item, vii hauberions que corsés viii l.

Item, 7 haubergeons only body, 8 livre.

Ernst

Here's two for you.
Kreigsbuch, ÖNB Cod. 3062, fo.82r, Vienna, 1437.
http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AL00177630 (Scan 184)

: ONB Cod. 3062 fo082r-brst.jpg (94.49 KiB) Viewed 1562 times

And fo.108r (Scan 236)

: ONB Cod. 3062 fo108r-brst.jpg (87.27 KiB) Viewed 1559 times

Ernst

A drill and caption from a 1437 War Book, ÖNB Cod. 3062, fo.47r.
http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AL00177630 (Scan 114)

: ONB Cod. 3062 fo047r.jpg (88.13 KiB) Viewed 167 times

: ONB Cod. 3062 fo047r-caption.jpg (65.81 KiB) Viewed 167 times

Ernst

I know of several examples, how do we date these other than if this particular type of mail died out after all wedge riveted mail took off, on the other hand if both types existed at the same time for longer than is thought there could not be any accurate dating. This is the crux of the issue to me...

Ernst

Has anyone actually presented any proof as to why exactly wedge rivets were considered to be that much better than round rivets. Do we have any evidence that wedge rivets were considered better, or is it simply the "way things are done"? It is a good question though, "Why did they make the change?"...

Ernst

I am reminded of the coif from Bulgaria, that Medka posted some years back. IIRC it was all riveted, and probably round rivets. That could use a day or two of detailed study and some metallurgical analysis. All it takes is time and money.

Ernst

Edit: I don't think that Richardson or Burgess comments on changes in rivet shape either. They just record the shape of the rivets in the individual pieces which they are studying, then move on to give their theories about when mail of all riveted rings began to be made in Europe. Who said anything...

Ernst

I'm not trying to be offensive. There's nothing wrong with creating a category based on observable physical differences. For example, all of us note a category of mail which has a "watershed" at the riveted join. It's a distinct physical form which sets one style of ring apart from others. Erik Schm...

Ernst

Sean M wrote:Also, the DMF thinks that <wans> is an alternative form of <gants> ie. "gloves." I think this word comes up in one of the big theses on armour from the UK.

So separate mail gauntlets? They wouldn't be out of place in 1300-1330.

Thanks for the corrections.

Ernst

Have you throughly read what both Bergess and Richardson have written on this subject, that is what I am basing my comments on. As for Peters armor, it is "Eastern European" and as we all know Eastern European mail does not always follow the rules of European mail, its like comparing apples to oran...

Ernst

:bump: ta-de :bump: Later the same page he talks about belts to support a paunce so sounds like mail skirt, at least in this case. Some more evidence to consider - The 1322 Inventory of Robert Béthune, Count of Flanders https://archive.org/stream/documentsetextra01deha/documentsetextra01deha_djvu.tx...

Ernst

A couple of miniatures which seem to show fabric covering the King of France's greaves. Compare to the King of England's examples cited by Richardson.

: BNF Français 2813 fo330v.jpg (82.8 KiB) Viewed 1679 times

: BNF Français 2813 fo355v.jpg (79.53 KiB) Viewed 1679 times

Ernst

The 1322 Inventory of Robert Béthune, (Robert III) Count of Flanders
https://archive.org/stream/documentsete ... a_djvu.txt

Item, une paire de chauches......Item, une paire de caucons coupés.

Interestingly, the chaussons are described as cut, or shortened.

Ernst

The problem being that inventories distinguish between round rings and flat, and demi-riveted and all-riveted construction. I have yet to find a description in medieval inventories distinguishing rivet shape. You've created a category which they didn't seem to care about - demi-riveted with one styl...

Ernst

C.S. Smith documents a mail brayette in the Metropolitan museum of art which is of demi-riveted construction, and likely dates to the late-15th or early-16th centuries. It seems unlikely that we can document the brayette's use into a 14th century context, although it's possible the brayette was mad...

Ernst

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century, Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite wha...

Ernst

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century, Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite wha...

Ernst

This makes sense to me. I'm not sure about the dates but have no problem with a transitional period between alternating round-riveted and all wedge-riveted. But how widespread was wedge-riveting? The two main manufacturing centers were in Southern Germany and Northen Italy and the Italian mail seem...

Ernst

I think that all-riveted mail first appears around 1300, as well. The inventory of King Louis X contains several items of "high nailing", the term Richardson (and I) believe refers to all-riveted mail, as well as "half-nailed" mail of demi-riveted construction. At least one "high nailed" item is not...

Ernst

In the Museumsnr: box, enter the item number without spaces. C3108 for the bevor, gorget, aventail, top of sleeve thing.

Interestingly, the entry for C3250, Vike's chausse, contains some dimensions.

Ernst

Mac, I edited them into url brackets. See if that helps?

Ernst

http://folk.uio.no/vegardav/brynje/Ring_Weave_Vegard_Vike_2000_(translated_Ny_Bj%C3%B6rn_Gustafsson).pdf Møllerdalen, Buskerud This is a fragmentary find of ring weave that was deposited at the Oldsaksamlingen in the 19th century. The rings are unusually small. The fragment was found together with ...

Ernst

A 13th century Estonian find, with metallographic samples analysed.
http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.p ... ew/238/244

: Kodasoo1.jpg (43.78 KiB) Viewed 6 times

I am glad to see the staple for the chin strap attachment, which is reflected in US Civil Defense helmets.

: Kodasoo4.jpg (18.09 KiB) Viewed 174 times

Ernst

And does anyone have a rear pic of this little knight statue? http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1278/3402/ Looks like it would take some scaffolding to get it. http://www.altbasel.ch/pic/fromm_leo3.jpg To the left: http://www.mishanita.ru/data/images/Schweiz_2010/Sankt-Leonhard-Basel-kapelle.jpg_small ...

Ernst

Hank on 26 Aug. 1376, Lisa on 7 Sept. 1399.

Which leaves the question of when the effigy was actually carved.

Re: Maciejowski fo.24r

Re: Maciejowski fo.24r

Re: Maciejowski fo.24r

Maciejowski fo.24r

Re: Comfortable and Flexible, suspending your legs

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: Chaussons

Re: Discussion Pizan vs Standard: what is the difference?

Re: Vervelles, how they were made?

Re: Pictures of breastplates which make you go 'humh'

Re: The Corset

Re: Pictures of breastplates which make you go 'humh'

Re: Vervelles, how they were made?

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: To wear a hauberk under plate or not, that is the questi

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: To wear a hauberk under plate or not, that is the questi

Re: Looking for a picture of covered greaves

Re: Chaussons

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: European riveted mail types and timeline.

Re: Researching Mail Bevors

Re: Researching Mail Bevors

Re: Researching Mail Bevors

Kodasoo kettle hat

Re: Alphabet \ Numerals

Re: year?