The Armour Archive

carlyle

It's always seemed obvious to me that the point of requiring armor on the shield arm is that sometimes we get hit in the sword arm and have to drop our shields to continue the fight. If that were true, then the logical corollary is that we would also require a gauntlet behind the shield, rather tha...

carlyle

I'd like to just focus on the issue of relying on usage of an object versus an inherent property. Yet you supported your concern with an admittedly contrived scenario. I simply pointed out an example of a known usage that has regularly resulted in injury, yet we remain silent on the inherent "prope...

carlyle

The scenario above is contrived... It is the very nature of the contrivance that is problematic. Lacking evidence that this kind of accident is common, or that the resulting injury is unacceptably debilitating; what is to limit the next well-intended SEM from enacting some new requirement upon the ...

carlyle

His Grace ... is ... struck in the head by a blow which he deems insufficient... I understand Logan's ire; this phrase, unannotated, does imply that a blow landed, but was then judged insufficient. If I read Jehan's subsequent explanation correctly, however, he is saying only that a blow was thrown...

carlyle

Leo Medii wrote:Dang....nothing but an empty white square. Hear sound, no vid. I have all the appropriate players, I wonder why.

I had the same problem when trying to show the video to someone on a different machine. I upgraded my flash player and it worked fine. Hope this helps... AoC

carlyle

Richard -- I'm familiar with your references. What they lack are the primary source citations supporting these statements. With the exception of one embellished statue, there is precious little to indicate leather was used as supplemental armor in the age of mail. By contrast, the vast majority of l...

carlyle

The Archive is a great place for people to get things off their chests, but not so good for things that actually require logical, structured organized thought resulting in getting something accomplished... And you actually think the KEM's were either more organized or more structured ? Seriously, t...

carlyle

He is telling the person, thier armor has ridden low, and what the persons opponent hit, was a legal target, but cause his legs rode down, it felt light to him. Though I agree with Finn's interpretation of Logan's comment, this must be a local convention. Where I play, a low shot is a low shot -- i...

carlyle

As far as the leather armour? I'm referring to the Section V of the Marshal's Handbook, subsection B.1. which states fighters are presumed to be wearing "...with boiled leather arm and leg defenses...". I understood the reference. I was only pointing out that it is a purely SCA construct unsupporte...

carlyle

Well I would hope you ... at least had maille over your elbow and maybe some leather too, like the SCA target armour which is essentially 11th to early 12th century. Full mail sleeves, actually: m There is no evidence of leather arm armor (or leather armor of any sort) -- either archeological, icon...

carlyle

I guess I need to change from telling people that shots were good when they don't think they are to they aren't good when they think they are.

This is sarcasm, right?

Alfred (hopefully being thick)

carlyle

I personally love the rule on elbow protection on both arms, not just the sword arm. To me it makes perfect sense if nothing else from an appearance and historical accuracy perspective... How perfectly late-period prejudiced of you, brother ! Of course, for us mail-era knights (you know, the time w...

carlyle

Jester -- stop being reasonable.

Aeth, JP, Mag et al -- thanks for caring enough to make an effort at communicating and clarifying.

I'm off this merry-go-round for now...

... and I still haven't finished my new gorget!

Alfred

carlyle

Is it possible that a -large- part of any of these rules discussions is a lack of proofreading/editorial knowledge on the part of the writers? Not if the intention was to require padding under all aventails... ... oh, sorry. Was that my outside voice ? Alfred (who is going out to buy a new styleboo...

carlyle

...the argument that was presented to me was that its not part fo the weapon and that a block to the hilt should be considered target substitution and there arm lost. I understand your position; I was only commenting on how you would only find two contentious rules since you have limited your argum...

carlyle

Logan wrote:it looks like the only nonesense thus far has been the sheild elbow and the asinine suggestion that 1/4" of padding will do anything behind maille...

That's because you still believe that the basket hilt is part of the sword and not just another form of hand protection

... AoC

carlyle

The office is only as good as the man who is in it, and ... there have also been good SEM's ... that tried to simplify and explain the original rule set that was worded in the vaguest possible language so it could be interpreted to meet the changing needs of the group. My apologies if anything I wr...

carlyle

(responding to the question, "how many serious shield elbow injuries are we talking about?") I have no idea, and ... it's not relevant, because the points I was trying ... to make were ... these aren't new rules per se, just the present marshallate's interpretation of old rules... Ah, but it is rel...

carlyle

I don't mean to be contentious, Magariki, but your argument begs the question -- how many serious shield elbow injuries are we talking about? I realize not everyone is as skilled as Logan, but aside from anecdotal evidnece, is there a statistical reference we can point to supporting this decision? F...

carlyle

Without trying to be too combative, may I suggest that you guys are missing the whole point? It's not about what's right or wrong -- its about holding the marshalate to a defensibile position. Armor behind the shield? Based on what?? I haven't fought with a shield since -before- the rule was impleme...

carlyle

Wear a coif. Pad the lower third of it inside the cloth. Problem solved. The question is not whether the rule could be satisfied, but absent statistical evidence of injury, why has the rule has changed at all? Anecdotally, an unpadded aventail without gorget has satisfactorily protected me for two ...

carlyle

Thanks for the advice, folks. I won't actually take any action for a couple more days, so if anyone else has a comment or recommendation, please feel free to PM me or post it here. Sincerely... AoC

carlyle

Richard and Jamie -- OK, OK, I yield ! I read Richard's most recent comment as a comparison of varying calibrations between regions, which I don't believe a plate standard will resolve in the least. Arguing an all plate reference to eliminate any confusion over counting -within- a standard is appeal...

carlyle

To be fair, this was not really a rules change - it was a clarification. As I wrote above, many (I think most) kingdoms already interpretted the old rule to mean that all neck protection must include padding. It sounds like yours didn't. The rule was discussed and rewritten to make this necessity c...

carlyle

the widely varying calibration standards from area to area are already a problem. Given that we already have an armor standard and the calibrations vary by region, how would changing that standard to a new reference point help? Perhaps I am just being thick, but I don't see how assumed plate would ...

carlyle

The easiest solution is to change the armour standard to match the rules, instead of changing the rules to reflect a difficult to calibrate to standard with different types of protection for different parts of the head. Nononononononononono .... Moving to a different armor standard only changes the...

carlyle

I have a 14' round Past Tents pavilion, and I am in the process of buying forged stakes for it. I set the tent up this weekend, but lacking any experience or written directions, I determined that I needed a seperate stake for each loop on the wall perimeter AND one for each of the ropes that poke ou...

carlyle

Under the current system, if I strike your shield arm with a good blow, I know because you will stop using that arm. Why do you need to know? Each combatant should look to his honor and his alone. Defeat would still be self-determined, and those who never yield will earn the renown they deserve. If...

carlyle

Robin -- Just to clarify, do you mean "offensive" as in greater latitude in using the shield to manipulate your opponent? Or do you mean it in the context of an actual and intended punch (to disorient or unbalance your opponent, as described by Animal)?

Struggling with the vocabulary... AoC

carlyle

i think eventually the SCA will adopt grappling ..., but evolution is slow. personally i'd like to see fighting legged and armed go away and go to counted blows. These concepts are independent and do not necessarily depend one-upon-the-other. I disagree that the SCA will adopt full grappling, becau...

carlyle

My god! A picture of me! That never happens. Thanks, Ursus!!

carlyle

armour as worn, plate is proof That's just another armor-based combat system, Otagiri -- and because of our historical latitude, is no better (and, in my opinion, worse) than the one we have. So long as the determination is going to be influenced by what a weapon might have done against armor (whet...

carlyle

Now be nice, Jester . It may be a conceit, but its a cherished one, and us knights have a invested a lot of our romantic ideal in what it implies. While I concur with you completely on the preferred approach, even I get tripped up sometimes by the remaining remnants of such a long-held belief. I wou...

carlyle

Somehwere along the line we lost the part about combatants acting as if the weapons and armor were real. I miss that part. I can sympathize with this; it's all part of the "suspension of disbelief" that allows those few-but-wonderful moments where you can actually imagine yourself transported to a ...

carlyle

This is a follow-on to my earlier post on sword balance. Last night at practice, I (often unsuccessfully) fended off broadsword shots from Sir Brand (West Kingdom). For those who know him, Brand is not a particularly large man, but he is in very good physical condition. The blows he threw were exeed...

Past Tents stake count?

SCA: Sword construction