The Armour Archive

Dan Howard

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds reasonable.

Dan Howard

You won't believe anyone else so make one yourself. It is a perfect example of experimental archaeology at work.

Dan Howard

So do the Bjorsater "dots" represent lacing? Is there any real question that they're something other than nails/rivets, or do one of the 5 other ways to interpret them seem equally plausible? Rivets aren't the only problem. I just used it an an example of why no drawing or sculpture, used in isolat...

Dan Howard

I'd love to see that reconstruction! Also, would most of these armours have been made of iron or leather? Or both? Dr Bishop's paper is in Scribd somewhere but I can't find it atm. Based on other similar finds I'd say that the majority of Qin armour was lacquered leather/rawhide and likely coloured...

Dan Howard

You've mentioned the bumps on the Terracotta Army figures being laces rather than rivets twice. On the one hand, I'm interested in the analysis which determined this. Up close it is easy to tell they are laces. The level of detail is amazing. Mike Bishop made a reconstruction using lacing and the e...

Dan Howard

I was trying to show that illustrations by themselves can't tell us much of anything. Posting more illustrations still add up to "not much of anything".

Dan Howard

These plates are attached by lacing, not rivets. You can't tell anything just by looking at a few dots on a drawing.

Dan Howard

King Henry the Everlasting wrote:If I understand you correctly, Dan, you mean this type of armour? If that's the case, care to explain why you think it's mail-and-plate please?

The bottom image is Japanese but there are similar examples from Russia, India, and the Middle East.

Dan Howard

Russ Mitchell wrote:Thank you, KHtE.
One day, just by cosmic luck, I *swear* Dan and I are going to agree on something.

Where would the fun be in that?

Dan Howard

The Sasanians wielded couched lances with two hands.

Dan Howard

The original illustration was more likely trying to depict mail-and-plates. The mail was incorporated into the structure, not worn underneath.

Dan Howard

My point is that it is pointless trying to use an illustration in isolation. They aren't even close to photo realistic. There is no way to narrow down the possible interpretations without supporting evidence from an archaeological or textual source. The best you can do is present all of the armour p...

Dan Howard

Roman sculptors carving Trajans column depicted legionaires in segmentata and auxiliuaries in mail even though there was no such distinction. They did it because it was the convention. It makes it easy for the viewer to interpret the scene. How many modern artists put horns on viking helmets even th...

Dan Howard

It is really simple to test. Show a class full of kids a mail shirt and ask them to draw it. You will see every variation that shows up in all of the illustrations and many more. And this is when there is a genuine example right in front of them. This suggests to me that whether medieval illustrator...

Dan Howard

I could not say it was or wasn't laces over rivets. That said I am not sure how likely laced lamellar would be in this area at this time. Hell, I'm not sure how I ended up on this side of the debate. I've never advocated lamellar in Western Europe either. My point is that the illustration is so sim...

Dan Howard

As for banded mail, I believe the term actually refers to a form of armour quite different from normal mail Depends on how you define "mail". If you use the Victorian definition then it is just another term for armour. Banded mail is the term they used to describe segmented plate (armour of bands)....

Dan Howard

Can we be sure they are rivets? Everyone thought the terracotta warriors wore riveted armour until it was properly analysed and found to be lacing.

Dan Howard

Hi Russ. Do you have a pic of what you wore?

Dan Howard

Found this earlier today when I was looking through an Osprey book. It's from a swedish wall painting and it depicts an armour which I have never seen or even heard of before. Does anyone know anything about this? There is a short description of it in the picture. Would need to know how much of the...

Dan Howard

Looking at the larger plates again I'm thinking that they might be scales for horse armour.

Dan Howard

If the Nimrud plates were intended to be used as armour then one would be worn as a pectoral, but IMO they are ornaments, not armour. The most common threat was from spears and arrows. Non-overlapping plates are useless against these weapons.

Dan Howard

Someone went though a dusty corner of the costume department and said "cool! we need to put this on someone".

Dan Howard

Still the arrow looks almost round at the point. I am not expert on bronze age weapons but have seen quite a few original weapons that looked to have much 'pointier' heads. Just curious if that was how it was supposed to look. I think they should be sharper. Hulit's arrowheads were sharper and he a...

Dan Howard

I'm not so sure - the ancient Assyrians seem to have had a similar kind of armour that certainly *was* used as armour. The Assyrians used regular scale armour with overlapping plates. Buckets of rusty scales were found at Nineveh. I can't think of an example of armour from anywhere where the plates...

Dan Howard

Thanks gents. I have wondered this for some time as the info I have read on it is very, very general and hardly in depth on the actual material itself. Dan if you hear back on this I'd be interested. The best analysis was done by Tom Hulit for his PhD. This thread has some good detail. http://z8.in...

Dan Howard

So are we sure this is raw hide? I need to refresh my research on leather but my recollection is that most leather and leather like products are hard to distinguish between each other after a few hundred year. The best guess is that it is rawhide or oil cured leather. I've been communicating with T...

Dan Howard

Don't say that. I like that movie.

Edit: Found the scene. Not quite the same armour but still terrible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubpQE2I ... ure=fvwrel

Not sure why Robert Shaw bothered wearing the mail. It doesn't seem to be doing much.

Dan Howard

King Henry the Everlasting wrote:Also, regarding brigandines, some constructions I've seen of brigs the metal plates are overlapping in a very similar manner as it does in scale armour so would it be correct to designate certain brigs as a form of scale armour?

Some brigandines could be described as inside-out scale armour.

Dan Howard

It was after Braveheart when that costume started becoming popular. It might be made of leather but it isn't a brigandine. The most popular type of leather armour throughout most of history is scale/lamellar. No the above armour isn't an example of that either.

Dan Howard

The Cairo Museum has managed to destroy it through neglect and mismanagement. There are only fragments of it left today and they have lost about half of those - they have catalogued boxes that are supposed to have leather scales in them that are empty. What remains is way too fragile to display. The...

Dan Howard

The Corbridge segmentatas were found disassembled and packed in a wooden chest.

Dan Howard

This tells us that there was inspection, and that stuff didn't always pass Yeah but they were Jews, not "good ole boys". :wink: Related question: How likely is it that the Jews modified the equipment to make it more functional before stashing it? It's possible that the standards for lorica fittings...

Dan Howard

Good one Rod. Crazy bastard.

Dan Howard

I'd guess silver too. Looks like there is one lacing hole in each corner. Would they be overlapped when asembled?

Dan Howard

Roman military equipment was produced by the lowest bidder. Quality control officials were bribed to pass substandard equipment. The state doesn't take over armour production until the 3rd century, which happens to be the same time in which segmentata gets phased out all together.

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: How plausible is banded mail?

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Mounted Cavalry Charge with lances

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Pla

Re: Interesting Incan metal armour

Re: Interesting Incan metal armour

Re: Was this kind of armour actually used?

Re: Mike Loades tests Egyptian Scale Armor

Re: Interesting Incan metal armour

Re: Mike Loades tests Egyptian Scale Armor

Re: Mike Loades tests Egyptian Scale Armor

Re: Was this kind of armour actually used?

Re: Was this kind of armour actually used?

Re: Was this kind of armour actually used?

Re: Mike Loades tests Egyptian Scale Armor

Re: The fragility of Lorica segmenta fittings

Re: The fragility of Lorica segmenta fittings

Re: Rod Walker on Jousting

Re: Interesting Incan metal armour

Re: The fragility of Lorica segmenta fittings