Leather vs. Metal vs. Plastic for Heavy List

Sarra · Post by **Sarra** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:31 pm

Hi! I'm a div four fighter (youth rattan) and currently have a harness of leather lamellar. I don't have a gameboson, which I know I'll need no matter what i choose for armour, but I'm wondering ppls input on if I should stay with the leather for heavy list (which is less then 1.5 yrs away) or update to metal lamellar, or scrap lamellar all together and do a leather or metal plate, or coat of plates.
I'm looking for what will give me the most protection without sacrificing too much movement,
Thanks,
Sarre

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:43 pm

You can have lots of movement in any harness of any material -- as long as it fits. Plate that binds your motions is plate that is too small for you, and plate is emphatic, if not just plain nasty, that way.

Armours of small bits -- lamellar, mail, scale -- are easiest to adjust or add to for your growth. You are by now probably getting close to your full adult height, but from 18 to 20 you are probably going to fill out a fair bit unless you take after some really skinny relatives. So, armor that's convenient for getting bigger around has something to recommend it.

A long quilted gambeson and gamboised cuisses make an excellent lightweight team for body and upper leg armor, with or without any leather lamellar added over it. The other part of it is of course the kidney coverage. As an interior belt, the kidney belt is good for hanging your gamboised cuisses and kneecops from.

What is your choice for helm/helmet? You may have noticed just how much emphasis this bunch lays on starting with the helmet and matching the armor to that helmet in time and place. It's a good way to get a goodlooking kit.

Jaymes · Post by **Jaymes** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:46 pm

as a new fighter (17) i went with plastic lamellar from Noble Plastics for the chest and back all the way up to my shoulders, i do not have pauldrons because, well im lazy, and enjoy the pain...at first.

for legs i made a design that will cover my thighs for the frisky little leg wraps, i made it out of abs plastic and attached some metal knees to it.

for vambraces i use cuirbole, with a 22g articulated elbow.

now im a very small guy (5'6 130lbs) "very boney child" is all i hear, so all this protection is neccessary.

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:55 pm

Where and when do you want to be from? The question you pose cannot really be answered until we know that. And please don't tell me you don't care, you just want to get on the field. You can get on the field just as fast by picking a time and place as if you did not. Wearing a bascinet with a Roman cuirass looks bad and is just pure laziness.

Ultimately, what material you use is up to you and your preferences.

What's your budget? Do you have tools for working metal, leather or plastic? Do you live in a hot climate? Wet climate? Cold, dry? Will you wear hidden armour or visible armour? If you are happy witrh your current armour, why do you want to change?

You won't lose any movement in properly fitted armour, no matter the material used.

Why do you think you need a gambeson?

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:30 pm

Sarre, here is my unvarnished vote. What everyou wish.

My kit is Norse- My armor is mostly hidden.

My knees, elbows, forearm protection, Gorget and weight belt all leather.
My thigh protection plastic (old school football pads).
My helm and gauntlets steel (ok the gaunts are ALMOST ready).

The helm and the Gaunts are the only visible.

I like the look of metal lamilar, but I am cheap and lazy.

I personally would rather see (by see, I mean visible) leather or metal. Don't get me wrong, I have worn blue plastic barrel and Kydex, but it always looked better t try to disguise it.

I see no problem with a plastic CoP, as long as it is covered, nor a plastic corenza (sp?) as long as it is covered.

And yup, the list above (other than cup) is what this auld fart wears, melee or tourney, at least for now :wink:

Theodulf · Post by **Theodulf** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:48 am

I wear leather lamellar over a gamberson. I couldn't see anyone wanting better protection. It's better than my old steel curiass. It's because of the way it overlaps itself. Anywhere you hit is practically 2-3 layers, and gamberson.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:57 am

How is your lamellar treated? and what weight leather was used?
If properly hardend with some minor ajustments it may provide the protection your looking for.
On a side note your kingdom leavel 4 can have some larger differences between other kingdoms a Picture of your current Kit may offer more insight on upgrades.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:18 pm

Hrolfr wrote:I see no problem with a plastic CoP, as long as it is covered, nor a plastic corenza (sp?) as long as it is covered.

It's spelled Credenza
and wood would be much nicer than plastic ...a nice cherry with brass handles.
Probably not too comfortible to fight in though ...maybe a castle siege defense scenario or some such
:twisted:

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:23 pm

The only reason in my mind to use plastic is price, I fight in this stuff, and since it's blue, I call it my battle thermos. Plastic does not pass heat. Say it with me, and think of Pennsic, "Plastic does not pass heat."

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:31 pm

Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:The only reason in my mind to use plastic is price, I fight in this stuff, and since it's blue, I call it my battle thermos. Plastic does not pass heat. Say it with me, and think of Pennsic, "Plastic does not pass heat."

I have the stuff in black and never had any problem with heat in it.

Mord.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:56 pm

I haven't fought SCA rattan in like over 10 years and even then I always prefered steel weapons so take anything I got to say in that vein.

I was raised as a steel armourer so the idea of using anything else never entered my mind.
But when I started in my lovely Turkish suit I got lots of suggestions that I should go plastic.
Many big Dukes fight in plastic.
It is certainly workable
But that's just ...Uggg (on a purely personal level)
We're playing at being medieval warriors aren't we??

Later, as Igot lazy about conditioning, I considered leather upper leg armour.

All-in-All -- all three materials are equaly good for SCA fighting.
The decision is mostly an aesthetic one

What do you want to play?
Are you a Barbarian in a splendour of leather, brass and steel?
A 15th century Knight in Shining armour?
An "Oriental" (RUssian, Turk ...Persian) in plates, maile, and silks?
Or a 1970ies post-apocalypse warrior in LaCrosse gear?

raito · Post by **raito** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:27 pm

Up our way, if you're doing youth rattan, and moving to adult rattan, there's no difference in blow force (in theory, but I have no doubt that our Dukes can throw harder than our Youth). So you wouldn't really need to change your harness.

As for materials for lamellar...

Leather. I wore waxed leather lamellar (Japanese) for most of my SCA career. It worked OK, but requires padding, and it eventually disintegrated. It was pretty light, but I didn't care so much for needing padding.

Plastic. I currently wear plastic solid-lame lamellar (Japanese, again). It requires no padding, and plastic doesn't tend to cut laces. I wouldn't recommend it for anything but Japanese (I won't repeat my reasoning here). It's heavier than both leather or some metals. But HDPE doesn't have problems in the cold like Kydex and ABS do. Heat is not a problem in lamellar, regardless of material. It requires no padding.

Metal. It's been a long time since I wore metal. But from what I've seen and experimented with it requires more maintenance than leather or plastic. The right metal is lighter than some plastic.

I'll second the opinions that good-fitting armour doesn't hamper movement, and knowing what you're portraying is a very good way to discewrn what you need and want.

Sarra · Post by **Sarra** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:35 pm

ok, probably should have specified more.
i have a backpoint banded bascinet, and am trying for 13-14 cent english.
i'm not sure about the statement that youth rattan doesnt throw harder than adult, but it makes sense when i think about it.
gameboson is because right now my lamellar can pinch if i get hit in the torso because i only wear a lightweight shirt that doesnt offer protection.
im really good with leather, and think if i stay with that i might just relace my old stuff to make it work better.
budget right now is small, but im pretty much looking for what i should up before i turn 18.
arms are fine, reworked them a bunch, will have to make new greaves as mine are catchers gear, and legs...well im working on that w/hardened leather and maybe an old street sign cut up.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:54 pm

Mord wrote:
Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:The only reason in my mind to use plastic is price, I fight in this stuff, and since it's blue, I call it my battle thermos. Plastic does not pass heat. Say it with me, and think of Pennsic, "Plastic does not pass heat."

I have the stuff in black and never had any problem with heat in it.

Mord.

Me neither.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:17 pm

Y'know, Norman, cherry with brass handles is also pretty good casket material... :twisted:

"Credenza," quotha. :lol:

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:41 pm

Norman wrote:
Hrolfr wrote:I see no problem with a plastic CoP, as long as it is covered, nor a plastic corenza (sp?) as long as it is covered.

It's spelled Credenza
and wood would be much nicer than plastic ...a nice cherry with brass handles.
Probably not too comfortible to fight in though ...maybe a castle siege defense scenario or some such

look out Jackie Mason......

freiman the minstrel · Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:13 am

Sarre,

To (sort of) answer your question, it honestly doesn't matter what your armor is made from, if it fits.

(I think that I recall that you are female. I hope I haven't gotten that wrong)

I don't recommend that you scrap your lammelar. If you decid you want more protection for your toro, take your time, and make new.

For 13-14 C English, you could go with a coat of plates, which is relatively easy to make, and pretty simple to make good looking. Looking good on the field is a good thing. CoPs can be made with steel, alu or plastic. I have never seen one made from leather (other than the backing leather, obviously) that really worked for me.

Your helm might be a little late for 1300 AD, but that is late in terms of decades, not centuries. I am NOT a 14th century expert. The good news is that this period really works for SCA combat, and that you are smack in the middle of the transition period from mail to plate, which gives you a lot of wiggle room.

If you are happy with the protection you already have, then you could do a cover up. Some excellent and well regarded fighters fight in coverups, and it really works for them. Here is an example.

If you are a little concerned about the protection level, but you are iffy about it, make yourself a gamebeson. You have a year and a half to finish it.

Somebody asked a similar question a few days ago, and I could only find one source pic for the period (I think the pic is from 1315)

If you look, one of the knights in the picture is wearing a cover up sort of thing that is very, very much like the photo of the fighter in the earlier pic.

Of course, I fight in mail, and I want everybody else on the planet to fight in mail too. Lots of guys in mail in the source pic. For a way that it is done well, here is a pic of Sir Vitus Polonius from Drachenwald.

I'm not sure if I answered your question. I do know that if I have gotten anything really wrong, somebody will come along soon with good information.

freiman

Sarra · Post by **Sarra** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:53 am

yep frieman, your right.
and i think for now im gonna make a gameboson and relace my lamellar to a different pattern to make it work better.
i just have to wait till after gne.
Sarre

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:38 pm

Gameboson -- new, ready'n'willing baryonic subatomic particle. Somebody call Fermilab!

Gambeson -- how they really spell it. When they weren't writing things like wamys or wambais, which etymologically are about the same word; while they were at it, like as not French spellynges beginning in "Ou-".

[GAM-beh-son]

I think I want to hear or see more about this "banded bascinet" thing. Do you mean somebody riveted together two halves using a central strip?

Sarra · Post by **Sarra** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:07 am

http://spiers-saddlery.stores.yahoo.net ... asime.html
sorry i cant get the pic to post
and thanks for the spelling

i knew i was off!
sarre

don · Post by **don** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:21 am

I've been told that a light gamby helps with any armour bites as well as adds padding (a couple of heavier sweat shirts do the same thing for cheap).

Plastic is a cost-effective option if your not sure what you want to be (check the revelant section), but it has to be covered.

If you are worried about having to sell your first born to get into the heavy list; ask to see the combat book or go to a practice and ask a marshall, they well be able to tell you what needs to be changed or modified.

As far as a persona goes; if you don't already have one, try fighting with a variety of weapons/shields and styles prior to deciding.

just my time on the soap box

don