The Armour Archive

Hello,
I'm looking to buy, beg, borrow, trade or steel a strip of good quality raw-hide as a test. I just attempted to disassemble a dog-bone and the resulting material was less then useful. I'm hoping someone who has edged a shield can spare me a strip.

I'm attempting to duplicate the leather arms depicted in Rene de Anjous book. I'm trying to lace splints to the leather in a braid pattern. My first attempt using inkle-woven trim did not look right as the weave patern of the trim disrupted the look of the braid pattern. Hopefully a smoother material will show the construction pattrn better... and it matches the color in the illustration.

If there is anyone who can spare a strip 1/2"x1 yard or a few smaller pieces that add up to 1 yard I would appreciate it. I'd like to know this will work before buying a full hide to slice up on a failed experiment.

Can anyone help please?
Thanks in advance,
Sean

The Leather Factory/Tandy Leather has rawhide strips that are about 2x36 for about $4 or a bit more.

If I understand your intent, I don't think it is sturdy enough to hold up in fighting(or at least give blunt force trauma protection) for the body of the arm.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:The Leather Factory/Tandy Leather has rawhide strips that are about 2x36 for about $4 or a bit more.

Oooh! That's good to know. Thanks.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:If I understand your intent, I don't think it is sturdy enough to hold up in fighting(or at least give blunt force trauma protection) for the body of the arm.

The rawhide isn't the protection source. The rawhide secures a splint (translated as batton) to the curbolli and the splint provides the protection. I'm taking this to mean a pencil sized piece of steel (like a conductors batton) sewn to the leather with a braid to keep it pretty.

There are many possible ways to secure a splint while achieving the look depicted but the most likely is that the braid is a strip of cloth or rawhide that secures the splint in place. Alternately the splint can be wrapped in a hollow braid and the braid then glued and/or sewn to the leather. There is some debate as to the accuracy of the original translation 'glued' which may be more accurately translated as 'affixed' or 'adheared' or something entirely different. I'm going to try for plausible reconstruction based on iconography and available materials. It's the WoH standard: "To look like the armor steped out of the page."

Sean

When I look at the pictures, I see metal splints attached to leather, possibly sewn or riveted. The other one I see as cour bouli leather with the lacing as decoration, I don't see any evidence of splints inside of it. Maybe you could post the pics so we could look again?

Hi there Sean, I think you can take one of those large dog bones you mentioned and soak in hot water until soft, cut to size and apply. How did you try it?

Take care

Pitbull

A sketch of the drawings can be seen here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/arms.gif

Better pictures are available here:

The Bibliotheque Nationale in France, which owns several copies of the tournament book (including the copy made for King René himself), has digitized the images from two manuscripts. To view the images,

Go to http://mandragore.bnf.fr/jsp/rechercheExperte.jsp
In the line marked "Cote," enter one of the following:
Français 2692
Français 2695
Click on the button that says "Chercher"
Click on the button that says "Images"
Thanks to Karen Larsdatter for the step-by-step instructions.

The direct text that goes with the pictures simply reads:

C'est assavoir, gardebras, avantbras et gantelez; lesquels avantbras et gardebras fait en voulentés tenans ensemble, et y en a de deux façons: dont les ungs sont de harnoys blanc et les autres de cuir boully, lesquelles deux façons tant de harnoys blanc que aussi de cuir boully sont paintes cy dessoubs.

That is to say, rerebraces, vambraces, and gauntlets; which vambraces and rerebraces are made to fit easily together, and there are two kinds, of which one is white harness and the other is cuir boulli, which two kinds of white harness and cuir boulli harness are painted below.

Further on there is the additional statement:

En Brabant, Flandres et Haynault, et en ces pays-là vers les Almaignes, ont acoustumé d'eulx armer de la personne autrement au Tournoy; car ils prennent ung demy pourpoint de deux toilles, sans plus, du faulx du corps en bas, et l'autre sur le ventre; et puis sur cela mettent unes bracières, grosses de quatre dois d'espez et remplies de couton; sur quoy ils arment les avantbras et les gardebras de cuir boully, sur lequel cuir boully y a de menuz bastons cinq ou six, de la grosseur d'ung doy, et collez dessus, qui vont tout au long du bras jusques aux jointes. Et quant pour l'espaule et pour le coulde, sont fais les gardebras et avantbras de cuir boully comme ey devant est devisé, fors qu'ils sont de plus lorde et grosse façon; et sont dedans bien faultrez, et de l'un en l'autre est une toille double cousue qui les tient ensemble comme une manche de mailles:

In Brabant, Flanders and Hainault, and in those countries near the Germanies, they are accustomed to arms themselves differently for a tourney. They take a demi-pourpoint of two layers, not more, padded in the back and over the abdomen; and then over this a bracer, four fingers thick and stuffed with cotton. Over this they put on vambraces and rerebraces of cuir boulli, reinforced with five or six small rods the thickness of a finger, glued on, that run the length of the arm just to the joints. And for the shoulders and the elbow, the rerebraces and vambraces are made like those shown above, except that they are bigger and heavier; and they are well padded in front. And a double layer of cloth holds the rerebrace and the vambrace together like a mail sleeve.

For lack of better information, and because I don't have the time to build white arms in spring steel before Pennsic, and just because it's a cool project, I'm attempting to use the description for the style used in Germany as the basis for the construction of the pictures. This implies 5 or 6 rods glued/attached to the curboli running the length of the vambrace and rearbrace.

It's entirely speculative but I don't think I am going too far afield from what is shown and described. At this point though I am having trouble creating the right look with ribbon and want to try something smooth yet like rawhide. Anyone capable of making cuir boulli should be capable of making raw-hide and if you can keep the construction entirely within the same guild structure, there are some economic advantages as well.

OK enough blabbing on my part. Anyone have any strips of scrap raw-hide they can spare for me for an experiemnt or should I just place an order with Tandy?

Thanks!
Sean

Howdy, You didnt answer my question. Ive seen dog bone rawhide used for many things, You said you tried it and it didnt work, How did you try to soften it?

Thanks

Pitbull

Pitbull Armory wrote:Hi there Sean, I think you can take one of those large dog bones you mentioned and soak in hot water until soft, cut to size and apply. How did you try it?

Take care

Pitbull

First thing I tried when I got home and before posting. Soaked it in warm water in the kitchen sink. Some sections would hardly bend even when wet and other sections disintergrated at a touch. I couldn't make a decent strip that would maintain any tension out of it. It's going to take a better grade of material. Could have just been the brand of dog-bone. I got it from the local grocery store (and the dog got the 2nd in the bag).

I wish the silk ribon had worked. Silk is amazingly durable, but it just dosn't look right.

Sean

Pitbull Armory wrote:Howdy, You didnt answer my question. Ive seen dog bone rawhide used for many things, You said you tried it and it didnt work, How did you try to soften it?

Thanks

Pitbull

Typing from work. Not everything I post comes up quickly, especially if I get a phone call.

Sean Powell wrote:A sketch of the drawings can be seen here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/arms.gif

Better pictures are available here:

The Bibliotheque Nationale in France, which owns several copies of the tournament book (including the copy made for King René himself), has digitized the images from two manuscripts. To view the images,

Go to http://mandragore.bnf.fr/jsp/rechercheExperte.jsp
In the line marked "Cote," enter one of the following:

Français 2695
Click on the button that says "Chercher"
Click on the button that says "Images"
Thanks to Karen Larsdatter for the step-by-step instructions.

In Brabant, Flanders and Hainault, and in those countries near the Germanies, they are accustomed to arms themselves differently for a tourney. They take a demi-pourpoint of two layers, not more, padded in the back and over the abdomen; and then over this a bracer, four fingers thick and stuffed with cotton. Over this they put on vambraces and rerebraces of cuir boulli, reinforced with five or six small rods the thickness of a finger, glued on, that run the length of the arm just to the joints. And for the shoulders and the elbow, the rerebraces and vambraces are made like those shown above, except that they are bigger and heavier; and they are well padded in front. And a double layer of cloth holds the rerebrace and the vambrace together like a mail sleeve.

Thanks!

Okay. If you look at the leather arms pictured, I don't think that there is any metal reinforcement shown. The lacing doesn't show on the inside of the shoulder, but maybe there are two layers of leather rather than one. There is another picture that clearly shows narrow metal splints on leather, so they are probably referring to that one rather than the one with braiding.
Sean[/quote]

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:Okay. If you look at the leather arms pictured, I don't think that there is any metal reinforcement shown. The lacing doesn't show on the inside of the shoulder, but maybe there are two layers of leather rather than one. There is another picture that clearly shows narrow metal splints on leather, so they are probably referring to that one rather than the one with braiding.

I agree. It takes a leap of faith and a liberal interpretation of the drawings. It's also important to note that certain features in some views are not present in others. The white arm harness can not be constructed as shown. The visor of the helm can not be opened with the crest attached as shown. The currias with holes does not have the anchor points for straping down the helm or for hanging the kolben. These may have been features that were neglected because anyone interested would 'know' what was being discussed, or it could be a mistake, or the drawing could be 100% accurate and we are interpreting it wrong.

The pictures of the Duke of Bourbon riding against the Duke of Brittony shows the Duke of Bourbon wearing what are presumably examples of the cuir boulli arms but the 'splints' may be exposed white steel or may simply not have the detail because of the size. It also shows the arms with enclosed elbows. The picture that goes with the short description shows what could be tooling or paint on cuir boulli, or just decorative lacing, or lacing over a rod or even fancy tooled splints riveted in place. To compound the issue the interior lacing isn't vissible. The good description isn't associated with a picture.

The leap of faith is that these are all similar enough to use details of one to construct the other. I'm presuming that the braid image applies to both pictures, that the interior stitching is missing or covered and that the rods in the final description apply to the second picture as well. It's tenuious at best and no where near 'proof' but at least it's some evidence. Historians have drawn conclusions from less.

If it isn't lacing over a rod it might be raw-hide. If it isn't raw-hide I'm not certain what else it could be. Suggestions are welcome!

Thanks,
Sean

The splinted arms are on the right.

[img]http://www.medievalhorse.com/images/inspiration/6.jpg[/img]

Dukes of Brittany&Bourbon.