Enclosed greaves ... attached to?

[Graham Ashford]

Hello all

Justa quick newbie question. but are mid 14th century enclosed greaves attached to the poleyns lower lame or suspended simply by their closeness to the form of the persons calf?

I am specifically looking at Thomas Beauchamp's cuisses.

Thanks al for any help.

[Armourkris]

I'm pretty sure they hold themselves up, however there may be a pin that goes through the demi-greave to help support the cuise. not sure about that second part though, i think it may be more of a 15/16th century thing.

I'll let more knowledgeable people chime in now.

[audax]

http://tinyurl.com/msmydf

This Thomas Beauchamp?

He does not look like he's wearing cased greaves. Looks like shynbalds over maille chausses.

But greaves fit closely to the leg and are held in place by straps. IN the mid-late 14th cent I believe the demi-greave floated over the greave and using a pin to support them evolved with the alwhyte harness.

[Graham Ashford]

Apologies, I meant this Thomas Beauchamp.

[audax]

Too many Beauchamps, LOL.

I don't think those are attached to the poleyn. Every time he bent his leg, like when sitting on a horse, the knee would pull down on the cuisse which would probably make it very difficult to fight or ride.

Now I have no proof of this. It's just my reasoning from looking at alot of armour and having spent some time in harness.

[GuntherofOrkney]

Remember that is also an artists version of reality so in real life the armor was different then that. Example is the vambraces,they go so far up his forearm that he couldnt bend his arm more then 90 degrees.

[Sean Powell]

Too many Beauchamps, LOL.

I don't think those are attached to the poleyn. Every time he bent his leg, like when sitting on a horse, the knee would pull down on the cuisse which would probably make it very difficult to fight or ride.

Now I have no proof of this. It's just my reasoning from looking at alot of armour and having spent some time in harness.

What makes you think this? If a leg is articulated well with the rivets near the mid-plane it is quite possible to bend a knee without raising the greave or lowering the cuisse in the process. A single turn pin, pin and turn-pin, and even post with sneck-hook are all represented in the 15th century for performing this task.

What you describe is a common SCA problem (from what I have seen) but most people in the SCA cheat their articulation rivets too far forward because it works well enough, especially for knees that arn't dished very deeply.

Effigies can be amazingly good indicators of shape and form but they arn't perfect. If you see a small detail then it probably existed. If you don't see a detail then it may or may not have existed. That is quite clear when you don't see articulation rivets on knees and elbows.

I would look at other contemporary artwork to see if any of them have a pin/post arangement. If none do then just stick with straps. If a few do then it may be justifyable as over-looked by the artist.

YMMV,
Sean

[audax]

Too many Beauchamps, LOL.

I don't think those are attached to the poleyn. Every time he bent his leg, like when sitting on a horse, the knee would pull down on the cuisse which would probably make it very difficult to fight or ride.

Now I have no proof of this. It's just my reasoning from looking at alot of armour and having spent some time in harness.

What makes you think this? If a leg is articulated well with the rivets near the mid-plane it is quite possible to bend a knee without raising the greave or lowering the cuisse in the process. A single turn pin, pin and turn-pin, and even post with sneck-hook are all represented in the 15th century for performing this task.

What you describe is a common SCA problem (from what I have seen) but most people in the SCA cheat their articulation rivets too far forward because it works well enough, especially for knees that arn't dished very deeply.

Effigies can be amazingly good indicators of shape and form but they arn't perfect. If you see a small detail then it probably existed. If you don't see a detail then it may or may not have existed. That is quite clear when you don't see articulation rivets on knees and elbows.

I would look at other contemporary artwork to see if any of them have a pin/post arangement. If none do then just stick with straps. If a few do then it may be justifyable as over-looked by the artist.

YMMV,
Sean

I think that in the mid 14th, things were being done a little differently than they were in the 15th century. I don't see any pins or sneck hooks on this effigy and haven't ever seen them on any extant mid 14th century armour. Nor have i seen the holes that would be present even if the pins or sneck had been lost.

I can't tell by this effigy if the knees are articulated or one piece. Maybe someone else can.

I guess what i'm saying is that I don't know but I'm just sharing what I think.

[Sean Powell]

I think that in the mid 14th, things were being done a little differently than they were in the 15th century. I don't see any pins or sneck hooks on this effigy and haven't ever seen them on any extant mid 14th century armour. Nor have i seen the holes that would be present even if the pins or sneck had been lost.

I can't tell by this effigy if the knees are articulated or one piece. Maybe someone else can.

I guess what i'm saying is that I don't know but I'm just sharing what I think.

Quite true, without an extant piece we are all just sharing guesswork.

Now that I'm home and can zoom in a little better without people looking over my shoulder, It looks like there is a row of holes or rivets at the top and bottom of each cop. I don't see articulation rivets on the side. I would guess that the lower edge of rivets was to affix to a scalloped piece of leather between the cop and the greave. That might be there to help close the gap and prefent the steel from scraping against each other. That would imply that there is no direct connection that I had implied.

The row of holes at the top is a little more problematic. By similar logic it would imply that the cop was rivited to a thin leather cuisse? That strikes me as odd and I think I see a crest line up the cuisse although it is less defined then the greave. A crest line implies a solid cuisse so it might be fabric covered or I might be mis-interpreting the purpose of the holes.

I once heard, and do not necessarily trust the source, that in their time period effigies were painted and gilded to be much more lifelike and a better tribute to the original patron. It's trivial extra cost to paint an effigy after the carving is done. Presumably there may have been applied brass work at the top and bottom of the cops that utilized those holes.

Either way, without seeing any articulation lames I see no evidence supporting attaching them with anything other then a strap and don't see how else it would be possible.

Anyway, that's just my guess too.

Sean

[Graham Ashford]

Not the best pictures but this is as far as I have got so far, but upon looking into the greaves (my first) I ran into this problem. WHat has prompted it is I am unsure, if the greave is not attached as to what will pull the lower lame and leather 'frill' down when the knee is bent.

Attaching the greave will help alleviate this issue, but I have always assumed that the greave was a seperate piece until now ... any more thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks for the help so far.

[Mac]

Graham,

You are asking all the right questions.

Unfortunately know one knows all the answers. There is very little to go on in the middle of the century. Almost nothing survives in the way of armor, and the contemperary illustrations are frequently not intended to carry the sort of detail we need.

Sometimes, the only thing we can do is to try to reconstruct the armor from the effigies, and hope that the sculptors were "literal minded".

To address you questions specifically:

I am confident that the greaves should support their own weight. This they should do by way of fitting closely to the calf, above the bulge of the gastrocnemius.

I do not think that the greave is attached to the "demi-greave" (I hate that term) of the knee on the armor of this effigy. This is just an educated gut feeling.

As you say, *something* has to make the "demi-greave" and the fringe follow the lower leg as it is flexed. The most likely thing would be a strap. This is not the strap that goes behind the middle of the knee, but another one below it.

Mac