The Armour Archive

I made a boot, yay me!

It's based off... of... umm... it's what I call "periodish" that's a proper term isn't it?



<IMG SRC="http://www.dark-horse.ca/boot_01.jpg">

Nice! What kind of sole is it?

Needs a sole still really, I may just do a leather one, may go to a shoe place and look around, might do crepe.

It has a leather "piece" there currently, I wouldn't count it as the sole yet though.

That's pretty cool, man.

Whatever sole you put on, some Sole In a Jar will help protect it.

umm. A boot or a PAIR of boots?

Ogedei wrote:umm. A boot or a PAIR of boots?

are you being prejudiced against one-legged combatants?

Ogedei wrote:umm. A boot or a PAIR of boots?

Well first comes a boot.. then comes a pair! Umm.. I've since made a pair.

Awesome! Glad I no longer have to be prejudiced!

My exprience has been one turns out awesome and the other one turns out ok. Hard to get two to match perfectly.

Honestly? That's hideous. It's better than what I could make though...

I'm looking into boots too and so far the ones in the first picture on this page are the finest I've seen:

http://www.regia.org/leatwork.htm
http://www.regia.org/images/Shoes05.jpg

Once you get the "foot part" to look like those, it should be easy to extend the pattern up the leg to make a boot.[/img][/url]

shinyhalo wrote:Honestly? That's hideous. It's better than what I could make though...

I'm looking into boots too and so far the ones in the first picture on this page are the finest I've seen:

http://www.regia.org/leatwork.htm

Once you get the "foot part" to look like those, it should be easy to extend the pattern up the leg to make a boot.

Hideous is such a nice way to comment on someone effort. But to each their own, I'm pretty fond of my boots, they fit, they do up, and now they have good soles on them. I also after some tweaking like the overall look of them better than the ones on that page. People have different tastes, I was never going out to make a perfectly period turnshoe, just something that wasn't a combat boot that I could wear.

I think they'll be garb boots though, I'm going to use heavier leather for my next pair.

On another note, the ones in the first picture on that page I'm pretty sure I could do.

I just was just trying something else.

shinyhalo wrote:Honestly? That's hideous. It's better than what I could make though...

I'm looking into boots too and so far the ones in the first picture on this page are the finest I've seen:

http://www.regia.org/leatwork.htm

Once you get the "foot part" to look like those, it should be easy to extend the pattern up the leg to make a boot.

wow. Seriously? I don't know Magnus from Adam, but I do know his work, which is some astounding leather work. He admittingly said it was'nt period, qnd did'nt try and pass it off as such. You admittingly said you could'nt do better, but somehow found the gall to call it "hideous".

Based on what? The craftsmanship equals or surpasses what a period piece would've/could've had. It may not be your cup of tea, but there is at least skill in what was presented, and that was the coolest you could be?

He handled it far better than I, and that is to his credit. I have no steak in it, save for the fact I admire artisans and craftsman and thier respective works. It's a shame either you can't see that, or in the least express yourself less...abrasivly. To each his own however.

That is very neat, Magnus! It's not my style, but it's definitely cool, and I think if it was refined a little you could probably worm your way into the same demographic that buys UGG boots . I would LOVE do make something like that, myself, but since I have to stitch by hand it's too daunting for me to attempt at the moment. Well done!

~Noah

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:I also after some tweaking like the overall look of them better than the ones on that page.

To be fair they are authentic viking shoes. I like the simple construction of them and also they are extremely comfortable. However I do like your boot(s) I could imagine them in a film of some kind with fur poking out the top.

Nice work mate.

Sneblot wrote:

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:I also after some tweaking like the overall look of them better than the ones on that page.

To be fair they are authentic viking shoes. I like the simple construction of them and also they are extremely comfortable. However I do like your boot(s) I could imagine them in a film of some kind with fur poking out the top.

Nice work mate.

I plan on making some more authentic ones here soon, just picky on which ones.

Oh, there are a lot of levels lower than hideous. I know because I've crafted lots of things in abyssal quality.

I wasn't even commenting on the period-authenticity of the boots, just the overrall look.
I guess I owe it to be specific at least so...

1. Leather is too thin
2. Two tone color scheme too fancy for Magnus' overrall "savage viking theme" [which is in my "badass" pictures subfolder btw]
3. Sole looks thin, but this might be compensated for with a hidden gellin insert. I don't know
4. Lacing looks like crude leather while the rest is obviously high quality leather
5. Closure looks haphazard as evidenced by bizarre wrinkling of leather. For this quality leather, it should be wide straps of the same leather with toggles
6. The outward seam at the toebox creates too much slope. Seams turned to the inside might help a little

I seriously doubt Magnus doesn't know all this already since I have seen his work too.

shinyhalo wrote:Oh, there are a lot of levels lower than hideous. I know because I've crafted lots of things in abyssal quality.

I wasn't even commenting on the period-authenticity of the boots, just the overrall look.
I guess I owe it to be specific at least so...

1. Leather is too thin
2. Two tone color scheme too fancy for Magnus' overrall "savage viking theme" [which is in my "badass" pictures subfolder btw]
3. Sole looks thin, but this might be compensated for with a hidden gellin insert. I don't know
4. Lacing looks like crude leather while the rest is obviously high quality leather
5. Closure looks haphazard as evidenced by bizarre wrinkling of leather. For this quality leather, it should be wide straps of the same leather with toggles
6. The outward seam at the toebox creates too much slope. Seams turned to the inside might help a little

I seriously doubt Magnus doesn't know all this already since I have seen his work too.

Nobody likes to hear their work called hideous, I think it's a bit of an unnecessary use of the word.

Pretty much all of what you said is stuff I do agree with, I think you just worded your initial criticism a bit harsh.

Pretty much every point is something I'm changing, better to offer advice than to just say hideous I think, a bit more diplomatic.

I just need to pick what boot I want to make, I'm getting a new helmet with an aventail and Vendel brasswork, probably a short toggle boot.. but I think even toggles are a bit to advanced for pre-viking era... then again it's not like there's a lot of finds, just need to get closer.

shinyhalo wrote:Oh, there are a lot of levels lower than hideous. I know because I've crafted lots of things in abyssal quality.

I wasn't even commenting on the period-authenticity of the boots, just the overrall look.
I guess I owe it to be specific at least so...

1. Leather is too thin
2. Two tone color scheme too fancy for Magnus' overrall "savage viking theme" [which is in my "badass" pictures subfolder btw]
3. Sole looks thin, but this might be compensated for with a hidden gellin insert. I don't know
4. Lacing looks like crude leather while the rest is obviously high quality leather
5. Closure looks haphazard as evidenced by bizarre wrinkling of leather. For this quality leather, it should be wide straps of the same leather with toggles
6. The outward seam at the toebox creates too much slope. Seams turned to the inside might help a little

I seriously doubt Magnus doesn't know all this already since I have seen his work too.

Wow...and they say Toddlers lack social skills! I am not saying that you are entirely wrong, but you sound like a jerk-off...it's as though your social graces filter is either defective or not installed.

Magnus...it is a great start. I commend anyone who goes forth to tackle such a project. Aside from a few modifications, this is not bad at all. For the sole, I would water-harden some 6-8 oz leather and you can either Barge glue it or, if you are feeling adventurous, sew it on.

Overall, very good attempt!

Thanks.

Since this picture I added another sole and then a crepe sole onto that.

Should have just used a thicker sole then a crepe but oh well...

The difference between ass kissing and brown nosing is "depth perception"
I feel the same way about trying to be overly PC or candy coating your critique when addressing something that is really bad, which has been posted on a group whose MOU is making really period accurate, well crafted items. I would have to agree that these shoes are not period in any way, and they are “periodishâ€

You can be constructive with your criticism without being a jerk about it. One way of criticizing someone will turn them off to what you have to say, regardless of how valid it is. The other can help someone learn and improve. Calling someone's art or craft hideous closes the door on constructive criticism. It's not about being PC or coddling someone. You can at the very least honor the fact that someone put a lot of time and effort into something and discuss what can be done to improve it instead of calling it garbage right out the gate.

Chretien le Meunier wrote:Based on what? The craftsmanship equals or surpasses what a period piece would've/could've had. It may not be your cup of tea, but there is at least skill in what was presented, and that was the coolest you could be?

I am sorry you think period shoes (anything) would have "craftsmanship" no better than this. You should look in more detail to the craftsmanship of historical items before spouting off on something that you obviously have not looked at or can understand. Perhaps your statement was meant to be a harsh rebuttal, but it unfortunately comes across as ignorance. Period shoes (as well as many other crafts) where leagues better than this shoe example.
These are my first pair of shoes, and I was proud of them, but when compared to period examples they are amateurish and poorly made. Part of it is the poor quality leather, but mostly it’s my in inexperience with making shoes.



Although they have all correct period (9th to 14th C) techniques they a quite bad. Magnus’s shoes have virtually no correct period shoe techniques or pattern.

Chris Gilman wrote:

Chretien le Meunier wrote:Based on what? The craftsmanship equals or surpasses what a period piece would've/could've had. It may not be your cup of tea, but there is at least skill in what was presented, and that was the coolest you could be?

I am sorry you think period shoes (anything) would have "craftsmanship" no better than this. You should look in more detail to the craftsmanship of historical items before spouting off on something that you obviously have not looked at or can understand. Perhaps your statement was meant to be a harsh rebuttal, but it unfortunately comes across as ignorance. Period shoes (as well as many other crafts) where leagues better than this shoe example.
These are my first pair of shoes, and I was proud of them, but when compared to period examples they are amateurish and poorly made. Part of it is the poor quality leather, but mostly it’s my in inexperience with making shoes.



Although they have all correct period (9th to 14th C) techniques they a quite bad. Magnus’s shoes have virtually no correct period shoe techniques or pattern.

Someone with thinner skin might go off a bit, but I deal with people with no filter at the bar a lot when they're wasted. I don't need this to turn into a flame war, but since it's my thread I feel obliged to at least comment.

Let's not confuse PC, bluntness and honesty with a complete lack of tact. I've got some thick skin, I'm really more amused by the resurrection of this thread and the noise in it.

Pretty much EVERY point of the 2 people that are causing the most noise are certainly valid ones.

I made these shoes with no attempt at being period at all. I just wanted something that could pass for period at 10 feet or so, and to me and most people they do.

I do some work in the film industry, I know what period shoes look like, and I know what fantasy shoes look like, but to the average person walking the street those lines certainly blend. They're also not exactly a masterwork in craftsmanship and I know that. I'm always trying to improve my kit, and these were much better than my combat boots, and of course the next pair will be another step.

My only concern is that if someone came to the archive with thinner skin than I with something they had made, and were excited to show their creation off.... that these kind of responses would get them pretty dejected.

I knew exactly what I made when I made it, and I know all the flaws in it. I was just pleased that I made a boot. I took an afternoon and put them together.

And criticism and compliments should go hand in hand. I'm not asking for sugar coating anything, but perhaps my ability to carry on a conversation without coming off as an ass to a lot of people is better than most. For as much as you may think you are being blunt and honest, if every other person thinks you're being an ass...

You probably are.

Edit: Lastly, I think the thing a couple people got their hackles up about the most was just replying with "Honestly? They're Hideous!".

That alone isn't exactly constructive at all, there wasn't much to back up that statement, the later posts helped but as a single post it was a bit silly.

Okay to save this conversation. I know Magnus Personally and for many years. So i can say they looked hideous. See now that a friend has said it the flaming war on me can start.

I mean sheesh you should use better cord to lace up. And who ever sold you that leather should be shot.. Oh wait that was me.. Okay.. You should give him more money. If you have any left after buying stuff today.

Now that i have that off my chest. For a first run through they are good. Are they up to his normal skills.. Not yet.. But you should see some of magnus's early work.. It he hasn't destroyed it yet. Everyone starts somewhere..

Now in order to make peace here.. BOOTS FOR EVERYONE. I will take a size 13 narrow foot please.

Digitalblakangel wrote:Okay to save this conversation. I know Magnus Personally and for many years. So i can say they looked hideous. See now that a friend has said it the flaming war on me can start.

I mean sheesh you should use better cord to lace up. And who ever sold you that leather should be shot.. Oh wait that was me.. Okay.. You should give him more money. If you have any left after buying stuff today.

Now that i have that off my chest. For a first run through they are good. Are they up to his normal skills.. Not yet.. But you should see some of magnus's early work.. It he hasn't destroyed it yet. Everyone starts somewhere..

Now in order to make peace here.. BOOTS FOR EVERYONE. I will take a size 13 narrow foot please.

I usually end up burning my earlier / 1st stuff in flames with dark rituals. But honestly all this thread has done is make me want to prove I can make a good boot. So the responses worked in my regard, I'm just concerned at how they'd effect some other folks is all.

Magnus,
I have never posted the picture of these shoes of mine. I do not have them on my portfolio page because they are so bad. I do not own my own leather business, and if I did, I would most certainly not have posted photos of them. I would think a guy who owns his own leather business and who’s work in general looks pretty good, would not have posted a photo of shoes like these on a forum who’s key participants are looking to replicate and buy period and well crafted items. I'm sorry you think or infer, I am an ass, but after 30 years of seeing mediocre work, met with great praise. (Much of that in the film business) I have little patience for it.
You are correct in that, a tactful way of commenting is better. However, in some cases a burn from a “hot horseshoeâ€

[quote="Chris Gilman"]Magnus,
I have never posted the picture of these shoes of mine. I do not have them on my portfolio page because they are so bad. I do not own my own leather business, and if I did, I would most certainly not have posted photos of them. I would think a guy who owns his own leather business and who’s work in general looks pretty good, would not have posted a photo of shoes like these on a forum who’s key participants are looking to replicate and buy period and well crafted items. I'm sorry you think or infer, I am an ass, but after 30 years of seeing mediocre work, met with great praise. (Much of that in the film business) I have little patience for it.
You are correct in that, a tactful way of commenting is better. However, in some cases a burn from a “hot horseshoeâ€

I'm changing my kit a bit, I'm getting the brass for a vendel helmet and an aventail to go with it.

I actually am more interested in making some period specific footwear than I was 2 or 3 months ago.

So if anyone has any ideas for "pre-viking" sweden footwear, I'd love to see some links on what they think would fit.

Toggles and buckles are out I think from my small amount of research... maybe something like this?

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... SHOE50.HTM

I'm undecided, and need ideas.

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:I usually end up burning my earlier / 1st stuff in flames with dark rituals. But honestly all this thread has done is make me want to prove I can make a good boot. So the responses worked in my regard, I'm just concerned at how they'd effect some other folks is all.

I am the one who ressurected this thread because my feet make people want to take ankle shots apparently. After looking at a bunch of truly vomit inducing shoes on big web sites I decided to try making my own.

Yeah, I should have been more diplomatic. Maybe if the rest of Magnus' kit wasn't so awesome I would have been. Beating around the bush might have made Magnus think all was well in the foot region. Have you seen Sir Cona's boots? Guy on the right. omg.
[img]http://members.cox.net/shinyhalo/cona%20baras.jpg[/img]



Mission accomplished if Magnus makes some sweet boots.

Maybe knowing you are working on a pair will keep me motivated. I made mock ups of the "foot portion" tonight with a thick christmas fabric, to see if I sized it correctly. This has a center seam, but I'm thinking a seam on the dorsum of the foot will make it too rigid when bending the toes upward. Gilman's has no dorsal seam...neither do any of the ones in the picture I referenced so fuck it, neither will mine. I will have to make a new pattern tommorrow but I can keep the sizing I tested tonight so it shouldn't take long.






Oh, I found out who made the ones in the first pic...some dude named Ivor Lawton of Dawn of Time Crafts, but he has vanished.

I'll try to update with my progress pics.

I like the fold over toggle closures short boot or tall shoe, something like what Bohemond does.

But if I'm going Vendel I wonder if I should... if I'm trying to get the boots period I might as well get them as close as I can.

I have a bit of a style dilema, my first real kit was based on nothing, my 2nd a combination of stuff, and now this one is getting closer again, the archive will do that to you.

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:I like the fold over toggle closures short boot or tall shoe, something like what Bohemond does.

But if I'm going Vendel I wonder if I should... if I'm trying to get the boots period I might as well get them as close as I can.

I have a bit of a style dilema, my first real kit was based on nothing, my 2nd a combination of stuff, and now this one is getting closer again, the archive will do that to you.

SHOE50, you linked to seems to have a dorsal seam.

I'm thinking this one for myself because the seam is on the side and it has a nice wide flap closure. It happens to be very early period:

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOES/SHOE4.HTM

Naturally, I'd have to figure out some way to extend it into a boot shape. Mine are for fighting and I'm not fighting in slippers. lol

Ya I like those ones, I'd like a taller version of those like you were saying but I'm not sure if it makes sense.

Though I have never had a problem being flexible off a pattern. So little has been found that if they look like an offshoot of a documeted pattern I personally wouldn't care much.

There's a shoe with a toggle.. so why not a slightly taller shoe with the same toggle? etc. etc.

shinyhalo wrote:Oh, I found out who made the ones in the first pic...some dude named Ivor Lawton of Dawn of Time Crafts, but he has vanished.

I believe he and his wife moved to Germany a few years back and he essentially is out of the business.

I wish I understood what it was that made people blanche at honest, objective, truly stated evaluations of their work. I do so much introspection that I wonder if anyone is going to point out something I didn't notice.

I had a teenager that told me to stop "yelling" at her when I criticize a decision she made or disagreed with her(without raising my voice). I have seen women(mostly) fall apart when getting their judging sheets at an A&S display, because there was no encouragement along with the critique, or the critique was pointy and direct (read-not compassionate). Men say "What an asshole!!" or toss off the criticism as an affront due to some other motivation.

In the end, people with the knowledge end up not sharing the full portion of it because, especially in the SCA, our culture of acceptance doesn't allow candor between people that aren't familiar. I have judged exactly 3 A&S comps and won't anymore due to the social risk that goes along with telling the truth.

I guess that's why I like fighting best. The outcome is decided and nobody has to explain -why- they pointed out a weakness or flaw.

Falcone

I think that overall the crux of the matter is how things were stated. I have been an artist for over 20 years and I have made some truly hideous things in my career...but each one was a learning experience, not one to regret, and I learned much more from constructive criticism from my peers. All artists have made such things at the beginning...

True, the boots are not period...he knows that. He even said that in his initial post. True, the boots could use some work. But these are his first pair! Sheesh! Constructive, firm criticism is best to guide the maker forward, not to tell him "those look like shit". How better to turn off someone than insult his work, no matter how novice it might be.

If every artist had a first attempt at something be dead on, then they would not improve or evolve in their art and themselves. How boring it must be to have started out perfect!

I look forward to your next pair of boots...post a progress so all of us can follow it and give Newbies ideas.