Help Identifying and Repairing a Helm...

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:32 am

Unfortunately I'm a little armor rich at the moment. I say unfortunately because it came from the death of a close friend. So being that it is what it is I'm attempting to clean up and repair his armor and get it as close to the finished cool he was wanting it to be.

Now I am unsure as to what type his helm is and how I can dress it out in an appropriately period manner. He also at time could get a little drill happy and unfortunately there is a hole in the top needed repaired. I think he was going to hang a horsehair tassel from it. Any help in how to dress it up and repair it would be greatly appreciated.

Here come the pics...(sorry for some of the blurriness, my hands shake some)

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:35 am

Thats a phrygean (sp) helm. I think a leather or maille drape around the lower of the helm would be appropriate, but that's all i can really say. I;m sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:56 am

Are you trying to preserve this as a memorial or build this to your friends Ideal?
Patching the hole will require a good welder and removal of the padding and chin strap.

mongrel · Post by **mongrel** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:02 pm

If you'd like to do a chainmaille drape I'd be more than happy to make one for you, just tell me what materials and weave you'd like it done in and I'll whip it up for yah

-mongrel-

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:04 pm

That's one of the more impressive SCA Phrygians I've ever seen. Graceful lines. So -- mid twelfth century?

What do you think of the welds, upon a hard critical look? Messy or pretty tidy? Somebody's going to suggest a quilted linen liner or a suspension liner, I'm sure, perhaps repurposing the OD camp foam to a last-ditch spangen-frame type reinforcement within a more period padding.

Superfluous rivet size holes that don't get covered by something else -- they get flush rivets. Use a large bit to chamfer the hole to give the rivet a place to upset into, hammer down as smooth as you can, file smoother and polish. The former hole should practically disappear.

Looks like some mildew on the leather chinstrap. Woolite on a sponge will help, Lexol leather cleaner is designed for this work. Then neatsfoot oil or saddle soap to rejuvenate the leather and soften it. Unless you plan to simply replace.

I can't make anything of the "blue blob" pics. Do they show blue foam?

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:16 pm

Well the welds are actually very clean, there is really only one messy spot where the grill was attached.

The chin strap would have to come out as it was literally strapped to his head only, no adjusting at all.

The blue spot you see is camp foam to pad out the top, OD green on the sides.

The holes were originally to mount a drape I believe, but he at least had measured and they are evenly spaced all the way around.

Are you trying to preserve this as a memorial or build this to your friends Ideal?
Patching the hole will require a good welder and removal of the padding and chin strap.

I think rebuilding to ideal to be used as a cool loaner for newbies with big heads.

If you'd like to do a chainmaille drape I'd be more than happy to make one for you, just tell me what materials and weave you'd like it done in and I'll whip it up for yah

-mongrel-

May be a definite possibility, although I may more need your help in fixing the hauberk when you get here. By the way PM some contact info for you and I'll try and help you get settled as best I can whether your on or off post.

Overall I would just like to revive it and make it a happy helm again if I can.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:35 pm

Personally, I would say that is way too nice of a helm for loaner (especially with a mail drape). Stuff like that has a tendency to grow legs.

Overall, a very nice helm. I agree that a leather or maille drape would help complete the look (especially if brought over the grill like a ventail).

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:38 pm

Oswyn_de_Wulferton wrote:Personally, I would say that is way too nice of a helm for loaner (especially with a mail drape). Stuff like that has a tendency to grow legs.

Overall, a very nice helm. I agree that a leather or maille drape would help complete the look (especially if brought over the grill like a ventail).

Well if its loaned it would only be at practice that I'm there and leaves with me. I've seen to many loaner suits we built be checked out in a bag only never to return.

I'm pretty sure he planned on it having a drape but that then he got a barbute and it was kind of forgotten.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:42 pm

Konstantin the Red wrote:That's one of the more impressive SCA Phrygians I've ever seen. Graceful lines. So -- mid twelfth century?

Mid 12th to circa 1220 would be my read. It really calls for mail over the black back and most of the bar grill to simulate the ventailled coif beneath.
The top hole photo is verry blurry, but that looks like a large hole.

Benedek · Post by **Benedek** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:43 pm

Tyr Palenske wrote:
Oswyn_de_Wulferton wrote:Personally, I would say that is way too nice of a helm for loaner (especially with a mail drape). Stuff like that has a tendency to grow legs.

Overall, a very nice helm. I agree that a leather or maille drape would help complete the look (especially if brought over the grill like a ventail).

Well if its loaned it would only be at practice that I'm there and leaves with me. I've seen to many loaner suits we built be checked out in a bag only never to return.

I'm pretty sure he planned on it having a drape but that then he got a barbute and it was kind of forgotten.

We discussed this the other day at practice, I think with the hole on top it is still legal, it's a fairly small hole. I also talked with Gassion about it, he said anytime we can make it to his place we can fill it pretty easily.

After the beginning of next month I'll be able to get out and do more things with the local group. I could definetely help you clean it up and maybe add some "flair" to it. I will hit you up this weekend at practice.

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:45 pm

Ernst wrote:
Konstantin the Red wrote:That's one of the more impressive SCA Phrygians I've ever seen. Graceful lines. So -- mid twelfth century?

Mid 12th to circa 1220 would be my read. It really calls for mail over the black back and most of the bar grill to simulate the ventailled coif beneath.
The top hole photo is verry blurry, but that looks like a large hole.

Its about a dime to penny size, not impossible to fix just difficult because of the position.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:54 pm

Re-looking at it, you might have a bit of fun trying to get the ventail portion to sit under the nasal. Looks like it is a fairly tight squeeze. Crowbar, anyone? On the upside, it would also look spiff with a new brass nasal if you need to remove the former one to attach the maille.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:56 pm

Good to hear that it's fixable. A horsehair crest or ponytail is right out for the medieval forms of this helmet. Here's a red example in the Copenhagen Psalter of c. 1200.

http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/2 ... cto/?var=1

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:01 pm

Oswyn_de_Wulferton wrote:Re-looking at it, you might have a bit of fun trying to get the ventail portion to sit under the nasal. Looks like it is a fairly tight squeeze. Crowbar, anyone? On the upside, it would also look spiff with a new brass nasal if you need to remove the former one to attach the maille.

Yeah it is a tight fit, but I think I can make it with some creative hidden connections. Of course it will also depend on whether its riveted or butted.

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:05 pm

Ernst wrote:Good to hear that it's fixable. A horsehair crest or ponytail is right out for the medieval forms of this helmet. Here's a red example in the Copenhagen Psalter of c. 1200.

http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/2 ... cto/?var=1

That''s pretty cool, do you or anyone else have any other examples of how they looked? My google-fu is a little hampered by a baby snoring on my chest.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:45 pm

More examples in the top left and bottom left of this zoom-able page from the Winchester Bible, c. 1160-1180.

http://www.themorgan.org/collections/zoom.asp?id=79

Tyr Palenske · Post by **Tyr Palenske** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:08 pm

Ernst wrote:More examples in the top left and bottom left of this zoom-able page from the Winchester Bible, c. 1160-1180.

http://www.themorgan.org/collections/zoom.asp?id=79

Those are way helpful.