Help with armor type

Frederik Hendrik · Post by **Frederik Hendrik** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:14 am

OP: I am really looking forward to seeing the finished product of this model when it's done! You have a lot of great images to work from.

I love late-period cuirassier armour and England had some of the best. The English did indeed field fully-armoured heavy cavalry during the English Civil War. It was rare, but they existed. The most notable regiment were the "London Lobsters" of Sir Arthur Hasselrigge. The Earl of Essex's lifeguards also wore full armour and it's likely that most of the important figures of the war had full harnesses. Illustrations from a cuirassier's pistol drill manual of the ECW show close helmets, so it's a misconception that the "lobster tail pot" was the only helm worn. Indeed, the vast majority of armoured portraits of English leaders from the mid-1600s show close helms.

The English cuirassiers' armours have a distinctly contoured form to them, with peascod breastplates and a very graceful curve of the pauldrons and tassets. It's quite distinct from the French armours of the same time which tend to feature heavily scalloped and riveted lames and squared pauldrons. These armours continued to appear in portraits well into the 18th century. I have a portrait of King George III - yes, the third - dressed in a full harness. The allure of the image was far too powerful for artists to resist, even after the armour itself became obsolete.

barbados_wild · Post by **barbados_wild** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:02 am

Hi everyone,

I've run into another "??!!!" (there's been a lot of them on this job!)

I can't figure out how the pauldrons attached to the breastplate. I've seen a lot of pics and photo's where they attach by a buckle. This armor seems to attach by a pin coming up from underneath. I've also seen this in other armor.

My question is what does the pin attach to underneath? is it "floating" ie attached to a leather strap which is in turn attached to the breastplate OR is the pin attached straight to the breastplate (wouldn't this dramaticly restict movement? )

any help would be greatly appreciated, the learning curve on this project is straight up!

UPDATE: I found something that would work - http://mailmaker.tripod.com/armor/halfplate.html scroll down to day 29 and 30

thanks in advance

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:15 pm

Barbados,

The most likely thing here is that the pins which support the pauldrons are riveted directly to the shoulder straps.

In Greenwich armors, the shoulder straps are steel plates which are hinged to the backplate. The straps attach to the breast plate with pin and hook arrangement. That weird bump in the first lame of the pauldron is there to accommodate the aforesaid pin and hook. (it's a peculiarly Greenwich thing)

Mac

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:00 pm

A lot of the vertical spring pins attach to either edge of the gorget.

barbados_wild · Post by **barbados_wild** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:09 am

thanks for your help,

@Mac, if the pin was straight out of the shoulder strap whouldn't the movement be really restricted? I mean you wouldn't be able to hardly move your shoulder at all would you?

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:17 pm

Its a flexible enough arrangement. You get move movement than it would appear.

barbados_wild · Post by **barbados_wild** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:34 pm

ok, so all the lames(?) can move ? i thought all the rivets in them would hold them tight to each other? or are the rivets for something else?

EDIT: I just saw a photo of a contemp set and the rivets went into leather straps underneath, so it could flex up and down but maybe not sideways at all. Is this right?

thanks heaps!

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:48 pm

barbados_wild wrote:ok, so all the lames(?) can move ? i thought all the rivets in them would hold them tight to each other? or are the rivets for something else?

EDIT: I just saw a photo of a contemp set and the rivets went into leather straps underneath, so it could flex up and down but maybe not sideways at all. Is this right?

thanks heaps!

They can articulate on leathers, or in slotted holes. Faulds often articulate on leathers.

barbados_wild · Post by **barbados_wild** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:51 pm

So just to clarify if he moves his arm forward the lames that make up his pauldron come closer together in the front and move further apart at the back? so they aren't all parallel? or do they still stay parallel but the bottom of the whole pauldron moves forward?

Am I making sense?

I just want to make sure I understand the action before I sculpt it.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:28 pm

Both. The entire pauldron floats forward with the point of the shoulder, swinging upon its anchor point (strap or pin) and the rear of the pauldron spreads out while the front compresses. The effect is not enormous, but it gives just that extra measure of freedom to make the motion complete to its fullest.

That's particularly so on the medial-side (towards centerline) lames. The lames on the distal portion of the main or central plate of the pauldron will also give some flexure, all adding to the freedom of the arm.

Lames on leathers compress and extend most easily and greatly, but also may float slightly from side to side relative to each other, as the inner leathers are not especially heavy nor stiff. Slotted rivets will give the same compressive motion, but without any side-to-side beyond what may be achieved by closing up along slots on one side of a piece and stretching out along the other side -- making the piece take up a curve one way or the other.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:11 am

Barbados,

Many of the rivets that one sees on armor are not what they appear to be.

While some are indeed articulation pivots, others are merely filling holes left over from early in the construction process. The corresponding holes on the plate below these "blind rivets" are frequently serving as an attachment points for internal leathers. These hidden leathers are doing the real work. They allow the armor (a pauldron in this case) to collapse on its self, while at the same time keeping the lames from gaping.

Much of the armor which has come down to us in collections has had the old rotted leather removed and new rivets put through both layers of plates. While this does stabilize the "object" on display, it confounds understanding and gives the false impression of unusable rigidity.

If my memory serves me, Greenwich pauldrons were originally on 5 internal leathers, and none of the visible rivets are served as pivots.

Mac

barbados_wild · Post by **barbados_wild** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:21 am

thank you all, that's great

Galvyn Lockhart · Post by **Galvyn Lockhart** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:03 am

Hi Folks,

Just thought you'd all like to see the results of our consultation.

http://www.blackcrabsculpting.com/m_gal_1_10.htm

I'd say it turned out pretty nice.

Congrats, Aaron!

barbados_wild · Post by **barbados_wild** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:12 am

Yes thanks all, honestly couldn't have done it without all the help.

regards