Unreal helmet

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:26 pm

I devoutly hope Halbrust is giving these remarks a good look as we back-and-forth the philosophy of the thing. [This site does not have a :popcorn: smiley unless a poster imports an /img/.] Meanwhile, Merry Christ Mass to him, and all of us also.

Halbrust · Post by **Halbrust** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:13 pm

I am taking it all in!

And while I think the helmet design I provided looks really cool I will defieately continue to look around. There was mention of turban style helms with cheeks. This is where I will first focus my attention.

If I do decide to fight in the SCA my first gear will be whatever I can get cheap or free. I'm many years away from getting a helm that "I want".

Cailin · Post by **Cailin** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:53 pm

For what its worth, the helmet you want will likely change several times. Perhaps not, but I know several people that started out wanting "A" and ended up with about "G".

Myself, I started in a loaner barbute, wanted a salet, wore a welded dome topped "Sport salet" for a long time, and finally realized what I really wanted was a bascinet. It took me six years to figure all that out.

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:36 pm

I commissioned a helm from Amour and Castings a few years back that had a sort of spiral top with cheekplates on the side. It was designed by InsaneIrish here on the boards. Not historically accurate per se but I liked it. Might consider something similar.

A few more pics http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=55176

Halbrust · Post by **Halbrust** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:18 am

Konstantin the Red wrote:
With your design, there will be bars inserted to make your helmet openings narrow enough to be legal. Which SCA Kingdom is yours, again?

A lot of SCAdians make a little armor from time to time in their garages. Pal around with these guys and pick their brains.

I am in Caid, about 2 1/2 hours from you according to google maps and your location you have listed.

I'm planning on dropping in at the Dreiburgen forge next month to talk to some armorers.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:50 am

Outstanding.

One of these days I'm gonna bust out of where I'm mewing myself up in Shire Darach and get back on the razza frazzin' field. There's an idea I want to try in a long gambeson for a lightweight SCA rig... looks like Society bare minimum, but with quite a bit of strategically located hidden reinforcement. Plus 14th-c. detail, and at least a sword hanger if not a rattan-sheath. I'll start with the hanger because I've had three made up for donkey's years. It's too simple to really claim as something solely my own. Anyone, repeat anyone, would take about a look and a half at it and go make his own.

Cailin · Post by **Cailin** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:21 am

Not to thread jack, but would you mind posting pictures of that sword hanger, Konstantin?

Cailin

Halbrust · Post by **Halbrust** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:42 pm

I have a few questions and figured they should go hear rather than in a new thread. I found some interesting pictures and chopped out what I have questions about.

In picture 1: I like the look of the cheek plates. It appears they are metal disks attached to leather much like the torso armor. Any historical account of this? Links to similar helmets?

In picture 2: Is the face protection possibly scales? It looks like it could be something other than mail.

In picture 3: Is that a style of gorget? Any accounts of something similar?

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:43 pm

Cailin wrote:Not to thread jack, but would you mind posting pictures of that sword hanger, Konstantin?

Cailin

I'll see what I can do -- and how many tries it takes me to do it, as I should learn how to upload an img file to here...

It is constructed of a foot or so of leather strap, like something you'd trim off the end of a belt blank. The short version of it fits either left or right side, but not both; the long edition may be placed either side as desired.

It comprises a belt loop, then the strip descends vertically a couple inches, is pulled up and back and the end of the strip bends around to be fastened to the descending portion of the strip right at the bottom of the belt loop part, producing a hanger loop of any desired size from small to quite large that suspends a rattan sword at a bit of an angle. The arrangement of the hanger loop can vary to vary the angle gravity makes the sword ride at.

Clever locating of the beginning and the end points of the leather strip allows it to be put together with a single copper rivet and burr, though sundry variations may be employed, depending on just how many layers of beltweight leather you really want to deal with -- the two-way, left/right variation has another belt loop in the works, perpendicular to the first, in which the belt loop you're not using stabilizes the thing on your belt and ends up with as many as four layers of leather all stacked up, which takes a long rivet. Much easier to show than describe.

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:52 pm

Konstantin the Red wrote:I devoutly hope Halbrust is giving these remarks a good look as we back-and-forth the philosophy of the thing. [This site does not have a :popcorn: smiley unless a poster imports an /img/.] Meanwhile, Merry Christ Mass to him, and all of us also.

here, save this link :wink:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s294 ... -chair.gif

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:44 am

Halbrust wrote:I found some interesting pictures and chopped out what I have questions about.

When analysing the work of a modern illustrator "recreating" period events and costume, it is very helpful to have more detail on the context. At the very least, the whole painting would be helpful. Even more helpful, any caption or book that it came from. In the case of the Osprey books, for example, there is often a description in the back which explains what the artist was trying to show.

In picture 1: I like the look of the cheek plates. It appears they are metal disks attached to leather much like the torso armor. Any historical account of this? Links to similar helmets?

I am having a lot of difficulty with picture 1. Based on the armour pieces, I first guessed that it is supposed to be a Mongol. But I don't think the tiger skin fits with that. At some point (I think 17 century) the Polish started playing at Scythian -- and they did the bit with the animal skin. Or it may be supposed to be a picture of the Persian hero Rostam whose armour, according to the poem somehow involved a tiger skin - so different artists integrated that animal in different ways.
Anyhow - while the general shape of the helmet fits into Silk Road styles (ie: could be Mongol or Uighur or Kyrgyz or ...folks like that) that leather flap with bulbous ear piece does not look right to me.

In picture 2: Is the face protection possibly scales? It looks like it could be something other than mail.
In picture 3: Is that a style of gorget? Any accounts of something similar?

2 and 3 are both from Mikhail Gorelik - a well respected Russian historian. On the plus side - all of his illustrations are based on historical originals. On the down side, his artistic style is often less than "realistic" on the details and sometimes I have caught him not taking the care he should (in the same book where you got these two from, his illustration of the Roman legionary had the plates of the armour in reverse)
That said --
I am quite certain that in #2 the fellow is wearing an ordinary drape of maile. If I am not misrecollecting, this an early medieval east European fellow.
I don't remember #3. I'm guessing he is an earlier fellow (again context would be helpful) The thing on his neck seems to be a mail "muffler" - but that does seem strange how it sits -- it could be over a thickly padded collar (which are quite common).

Halbrust · Post by **Halbrust** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:34 pm

Thank you Norman. I thought I was being helpful cutting out only the element I was asking about. Here are all three pictures in their entirety.

don · Post by **don** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:20 pm

I say Halbrust should hold onto the Persian helm pics(not to mention, go through the Kaganate site.), start fighting and carry on from there.

This may sound like the same thing others were saying; however looking at the Persian helm - a blacked out bargrill, slat back, maile drape with some navy/black fabric behind it would make it list legal while maintaining the Persian flavour.

Halbrust, when you get into the SCA, if your not already involved, you well find there are three or four ways we get stuff.

We buy it
We barter for it
We figure out how to do it and do it ourselves
Sometimes you well be given stuff just by simply asking to borrow the item(s)(or sometimes the person just wants it out of their place.)

Don

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:51 pm

If I recall, isn't there an onion top open faced barbute in existence? I'm not at home, so I can't look through my pics.

If there is one, then the SCA version would have to be either bar grilled or T-faced (or Y-faced, or corinthian, or something).

I'm not claiming that a swirled onion top T-faced barbute existed, but it may not be as far off as we think.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:07 pm

Maybe it's Burgundian. :twisted:

We always blame the Burgundians for sixteenth-century helmets with artsy extras, fripperies, and hoo-hahs -- until they made up for it all by inventing the burgonet, the second popular helmet type in Europe to shade the eyes -- without using a closed visor. The first type was the kettlehat.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:10 pm

Halbrust wrote:Here are all three pictures in their entirety.

Yeah, that first picture looks even more iffy with more of it.
There are lots of bits which make me think Ancient Egypt or maybe Assyria, then there's a guy in the lower left who makes me think 15th century. I'd love the caption for it - and would not trust anything on it without some serious backup.

I was right on my recollection of picture 2 - Mikhail Gorelik "Warriors of Eurasia". The caption is in English so you can see who the folks are (the caption in the image you posted is too small for me to read). The tableau is basicaly 6-10 century Eastern Europe. I know that the bottom is Khazar and the top is Alan, I think the guy you focused on is supposed to be Magyar. As i said, that is definitely a mail drape on his helmet. There are plenty of finds for that time-place.

Picture 3 kinda looks like its from Warriors of Eurasia but the numbers are in a different font and it doesn't have the green background - so maybe it was another publication. I think its supposed to be a very much earlier period in the Caucas mountains or thereabouts. Again, I am almost a 100% that the colar is mail over padding - but I don't know what the images are based on.

Halbrust · Post by **Halbrust** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:44 pm

I pulled the pictures from here http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... thread=439
Unfortunately my computer sucks and it took almost two hours to get the pictures to open.