"pairs" of plates

[Steve S.]

Coats of plates are often listed in historical documents as "pairs" of plates.

Why do you suppose this is?

Do you suppose that coats of plates may have had both an outer and inner shell, so that the plates were hidden inside a pair of coverings?

Steve

[Ckanite]

To my knowledge some armours were combined in pairs, to make them more bulletproof, but those were mostly breastplates, and that was only for a short period. I remember watching it on the History channel some time ago...

[losthelm]

I think its more a matter of symmetry.
The Right side being the mirror image of the plates on the left.

[chef de chambre]

Losthelm has it. there is usually a distinctive front and back on a Coat of Plates, even if they are joined together, the two being refered to as a pair. They were refering to 'peyers of breganderys' in regards to brigandines a century later.

[Steve S.]

I know some coat armors had the plates sandwiched between layers of material.

Do you think coats of plates may have been that way also?

I've got to re-read Thordeman; does he note any evidence one way or the other?

Steve

[chef de chambre]

All the plates I have seen, and all the plates I think in Thordman, give only indications of a textile on one side of the plate.

[Sean Powell]

Does your pair of pants have 2 layers also? Yes I realize that it has 2 legs but it's not 1 pant / 2 pants.

I would assume that it was a language phenomenon. Any idea what they are refered to in French or German?

Sean

[Konstantin the Red]

I have always understood this to mean front and back plates, not left and right.

Pairs of pants seem to date from the days of separate hose.

Modern French seems to keep it singular, with just pantalon for both pants, and a pair of.

Straight Dope, pair of pants

World Wide Words

Yes, this sort of thing gives the diligent foreigner learning English a headache

[Richard de Scolay]

Does your pair of pants have 2 layers also? Yes I realize that it has 2 legs but it's not 1 pant / 2 pants.

I would assume that it was a language phenomenon. Any idea what they are refered to in French or German?

Sean

A quick search on the origin of the term does indead seem to come from when they were separate.

[Bertus Brokamp]

German = Plate

in medieval low german a manufacturer would often be called 'platemaker', in medieval high german the '-ner' ending was preferred here, so a 'platener'
in nowadays high german an armourer is still called a 'plattner'

[Steve S.]

All the plates I have seen, and all the plates I think in Thordman, give only indications of a textile on one side of the plate.

Thanks for the info.

What got me thinking about this was I just made (or am making) a new coat of plates using mild steel for the plates.

I primed them and then painted them with brush-on rustoleum black.

But this will be bearing directly against my maille shirt, and I expect much abrasion and expect the paint will wear off rather quickly (which is why I brushed on paint instead of spray, for a thicker coat).

I thought perhaps if there was a layer of material on the inside of the coat of plates the problem would go away.

Steve

[Sean Powell]

Does your pair of pants have 2 layers also? Yes I realize that it has 2 legs but it's not 1 pant / 2 pants.

I would assume that it was a language phenomenon. Any idea what they are refered to in French or German?

Sean

A quick search on the origin of the term does indead seem to come from when they were separate.

Hunh, So it IS 1 pant / 2 pants. I would have guessed that for hose/hosen but not pants. Go figure. Language is a crazy thing.

Still, does anyone know the German, French or Italian terms for a Coat of Plates?

Sean

[Bertus Brokamp]

Sean, I just gave you the German name a few posts up; plate

But for clarity's sake I will give another example. Here it is mentioned in a c. 1371 bilingual text from Bruges. It was probably meant to teach the Flemish people Picardian French or vice versa.

Denijs, de sweertvaghere, es mi sculdich te bruneerne mijn sweert, mine misericorde, mine dagghe, ende es mi sculdich te makene eenen helm; J beckineel, IJ yserinen hantscoen, eenen halsberch, eene gorgiere, IJ beenhernassche ende eene plate.

Denis, le fourbisseur, me doit fourbir m'espee, me misericorde, me dagghe, si me doit faire un heaume, un bachinct, IJ wantelets, un haubergon, une gorgiere, deus greves et une plate.

Translation by me:
'Denis, the swordcleaner, owes me to polish my sword, misericord, dagger, and owes me to make me a (great) helm, a bacinet, two iron gloves, a haubergeon, a collar, two leg armours/greaves and a plate.'

As you can see, in both languages it was just called a 'plate'.

[Steerpike]

Looking at the article from Straight Dope Konstantin the Red cited, my eye was caught by this bit:
Further confusing matters is "a dozen pairs of rosaries," even though there are 50-some beads. This harks back to an old use of the word "pair" to mean "a set of more than two like or equal things making a whole."
(my emphasis)
Maybe this explains why a thing composed of a dozen (all very similar) bits gets called "a pair"?
£0.02...
Simon C

[Signo]

In italian coat of plates is called "cotta di piastre" that is the exact wording just translated. I don't know if earlier authors (like Boccia) referred to them in a different way (they often used terms quite archaic, but it was common in book published 30 or 40 years ago).

[Jon Terris]

When exactly does the term first appear does anyone know?

I'm of the opinion that the term specifically refers to the style of COP which has the large plate structure we tend to call
"Transitional Armour" today,

with two specific paired left/right plates on the upper body.

I have seen this term used to justify the so called "archers brigandine" (something I also don't believe to be accurate) but never to justify a lining.

Some modern brigs and COPs are made with linings to protect the arming garments or to prolong the life of the item or items by preventing wear.

Historically this would be of little consequence to a fighting man, he'd be more interested in surviving the fight and would probably see replacing/repairing kit as a minor issue (he'd be happy to be alive enough to do it!).

JonT

[Mac]

Looking at the article from Straight Dope Konstantin the Red cited, my eye was caught by this bit:
Further confusing matters is "a dozen pairs of rosaries," even though there are 50-some beads. This harks back to an old use of the word "pair" to mean "a set of more than two like or equal things making a whole."
(my emphasis)
Maybe this explains why a thing composed of a dozen (all very similar) bits gets called "a pair"?
£0.02...
Simon C

Steepike's got the right of it. In medieval English usage, "Pair" just means "set". For example, a "pair of dice" typically consisted of three dice.

Thus, a "pair of plates" will consist of as many individual plates as necessary, so long as they collectively comprise the functional set. Our modern idea that "pair" must mean "two", just gets in the way here.

Mac

[Steve S.]

Cool. Even Merriam Webster says:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pair

"3 chiefly dialect : a set or series of small objects (as beads)"

Who would have thought to just look in a dictionary?

Steve

[losthelm]

a good unabridged dictiionary is very useful for research.

[Theodulf]

In a book I just got, which was published in the 60s, coats of plates are always reffered to as pairs of plates.