14th century Germanic surcoat?

[jamesn_13]

In the following there are depictions of a type of garment worn over the torso armour of these knights, some are laced, buttoned, or closed at the back somehow. What is this garment and how would one go about making one?

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/otto_von_pienzenau/image/759/original/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/konrad_von_bickenbach_a/image/776/original/

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Germany%20Frankfurt%20am%20Main%20St%20Bartholomeus%20Cathedral%20Rudolf%20von%20Sachsenhausen%201370%20large%2004.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi02308d12a.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi01886a05a.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi05818d09a.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi00033b09a.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi04967b06a.jpg

[Galfrid atte grene]

I'd call that a jupon (though the word jupon can have various meanings ...). My understanding is that they're thin (as opposed to a gambeson or the like), tight garments, often with a heraldic design.

[jamesn_13]

Hmm, I figured it was called a jupon. But how does one construct one. I have to make it open up the front as I have no helpers to put me in armour . Would it be feasible to take a gambeson pattern in scrap fabric and pin the jupon on me while I'm in armour?

[Ckanite]

That seems like a good idea. I think that you would partially attach it to the armor prior to putting it on so it's a wee bit easier...

[Steve S.]

In some of these photos I'm not sure if we are seeing a jupon over a coat of plates or the outer shell of the coat of plates itself.

How can you decide?

I'd hazard that garments that are laced or buttoned are not the coat of plates, but are rather a covering garment over the coat of plates.

What do you think of the large flower that covers the exit point for the chains on:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/

Do you suppose the staple mount point for the chains pokes through a hole in the jupon, and then a leather "flower" with a hole in it is put over the jupon and staple, and then the chains attached? Thus the flower would hide the (perhaps ragged) hole in the jupon and protect the hole in the jupon from the chains?

Steve

[Steerpike]

In some of these photos I'm not sure if we are seeing a jupon over a coat of plates or the outer shell of the coat of plates itself.

How can you decide?

I'd hazard that garments that are laced or buttoned are not the coat of plates, but are rather a covering garment over the coat of plates.

What do you think of the large flower that covers the exit point for the chains on:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/

Do you suppose the staple mount point for the chains pokes through a hole in the jupon, and then a leather "flower" with a hole in it is put over the jupon and staple, and then the chains attached? Thus the flower would hide the (perhaps ragged) hole in the jupon and protect the hole in the jupon from the chains?


Steve

£0.02 worth...
"Evidence " of an iconographic representation of a garment being plated on the inside is usually the presence of rivet heads or similar features, or a suggestion of the edges of the plates. I (personally) don't see any rivets on these pics, so I would say they're all jupons...but I stress again that that's only my (inexpert ) opinion.
The lanyard chains that appear on the effigies being attached to the underlying armour through a hole in the jupon surrounded by an ornamental reinforcing? Sounds good to me, but it's speculative, and finding solid proof would be a 'mare.
Interesting that the von Pienzenau effigy seems to show that the helm chain is rigged slightly differently and just disappears under the aventail on its way to its anchor point...

(edit) an afterthought...does Konrad von Bickenbach look like he's wearing a Churburg 13 type over his jupon to you?

[Kerry Pratt]

I can't give you the "historical" approach but my Lady Wife makes them for me much like a t-tunic (although that is grossly oversimplified). Both sides lace up and you can contour the sides if you want the tight "historic" appearance. I can probably get out the camera and take a few pics if you want.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I think it is safe to say that there are not any surviving examples of these "arming chains"- whether connected to a piece of armour or not. Everything is guesswork here. If you can make it look right, you should be satisfied with that.

I'll make mine from wet-formed, oven-dried leather, with the chains themselves connected to the visible chest plate on my COP by a thick, narrow leather loop that will thread through the chain end via a hole in the decorative mount.

-V

[Munz]

How to pattern a jupon of this sort really depends on what kind of armour it's going over. If you are wearing a COP then I would start with a larger version of that pattern cut out in some cheap fabric. If it's going over a globose breastplate then you are going to have a much more complicated pattern that might involve a seam at the waist to keep the 14th cent. "wasp" look.

Either way it will probably involve draping the body while your armour is on and fitting the fabric snugly over the body. If it is to open up the front you will need to plan for what kind of closure you want. If it is going to lace then you don't need the overlap of fabric that buttons will need. BTW, buttons have a tendency to get knocked off a lot so buy or make extras.

And when you sew the final version use a decent looking fabric. You don't want to go to all this trouble and end up with cheap cotton on the outside. These are conspicutive consumption. Knights and Men at arms wanted to show off and look fancy. Try a velvet or brocade in your heraldic colors - linen will look too low class. Also try saving it for tournaments and not for average practices (that is assuming this is for SCA or some other martial use and not just costume).

[Steerpike]

Here you go ...sorry can't seem to get it to show as an image
http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=7114
Excavated 2002, dated to 1360.
Restoration may be slightly suss.

[white mountain armoury]

I think it is safe to say that there are not any surviving examples of these "arming chains"- whether connected to a piece of armour or not. Everything is guesswork here. If you can make it look right, you should be satisfied with that.

I'll make mine from wet-formed, oven-dried leather, with the chains themselves connected to the visible chest plate on my COP by a thick, narrow leather loop that will thread through the chain end via a hole in the decorative mount.

-V

There are examples of arming chains still connected to the chest portion of a cop.As for a jupon over armour, my wife makes mine quite tailored. All measuring done in full kit.
Slits are cut and bound to accomodate the chains.

[Steve S.]

I think it is safe to say that there are not any surviving examples of these "arming chains"- whether connected to a piece of armour or not.

There is one:

http://www.mesa-online.de/41294.html

Steve

[Steerpike]

I think it is safe to say that there are not any surviving examples of these "arming chains"- whether connected to a piece of armour or not.

There is one:

http://www.mesa-online.de/41294.html

Steve

Yup- same one I found, just a different photo

[white mountain armoury]

Yes, tha'ts the one I was thinking of, I have a fair amount of good images of it.
I am not sold on that reconstruction although it is nice.

[D. Sebastian]

chains:

[Valley of the Fir Trees]

(edit) an afterthought...does Konrad von Bickenbach look like he's wearing a Churburg 13 type over his jupon to you?

I have been looking at a lot of effigies and discussing the churburg 13 a lot lately, and as soon as I saw that particular effigy, my very first thought was...Thats a 13!