Question on my very first Pauldrons

[Ironic]

Ok new to the forum hello all fellow armorers

Ok I'm making my first pauldron based on the pattern by Sinric. He never gave what type of rivets to use. So I'm wondering what type do I use, softer or harder? Does it depend on what metal you use?
I don't know exactly what metal I'm using, just some scrape metal I found on the farm.

Also were do you recommend I get the leather for the strap?

[Armourkris]

Personally, for rivets I just use nails clipped down to length. 6D 2" nails are the size i use the most, for attaching leather to steel I go for roofing nails since the wider head means i don't need to use a washer.

as for the leather, I know a number of people here use Brettuns Village leather or Tandy Leather. If you live somewhere rural Tack shops often have leather you can buy

When I was first starting out armouring my first few projects i scavenged all my leather from old leather belts. just make sure they are real leather and not that pressed crap.

[Odd]

For leather, brettun's and Tandy are good, also try:

http://www.zackwhite.com/
http://www.realleatherpeople.com

For rivets, in the long term, it does matter what material they are. But for your current project of random metals, cut down nails will be more than fitting, and cost effective. In the future, when you know what materials you are working with, try to match them with rivets. Copper works wellf or leather connections, mild for mild, aluminum for aluminum. For stainless, you can use stainless, but brass works well also.

Aluminum in leather is bad. Aluminum holding mild onto leather is worse. Leather like to hold moisture, and the chemical mixes when you sweat into this will rust the steel, erode the aluminum, and rot the leather. Aluminum rivets in steel will shear off easily. Same with copper.

http://www.rjleahy.com/ has varied types at good prices
http://www.mcmaster.com/ has everything you will ever need.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/industrial-equipment.html Same as above

[Ironic]

Thanks for the info I will keep that in mind.

Just finished one pair. Since its my first time I'm not tempering it, one reason is I don't even have a kiln and my oven doesn't get any hotter than 500F
.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

In general, you will want the rivets to be softer than the armor. If you have to replace them, you will find this beneficial, and since they will be thicker than the plates you are riveting, you would prefer the rivets to wear down rather than the armor. Otherwise, you wind up with larger holes, needing larger rivets when you repair it.

[Odd]

Never seen rivets be a problem in the same materials. Mild in mild is the most common, and never been an issue drilling out and replacing. In the occasion of a hard to drill out rivet, you can always chisel whack it from the outside, then tap it out backwards.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I used some Monel rivets (high nickel content) in my SS pauldrons. They are a pain to remove.

[Odd]

Now, was this.. a conscious decision? Or did you have no stainless or brass rivets?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

They were available.

I didn't realize that they were that much harder than the stainless, and if I was putting something together that wouldn't need to come apart to replace the straps, I'd use them again.

They are actually the sliding rivets on my pauldrons, but some of the plates are regular 18g 300 series and need a bit of reshaping. I'll get them out okay, but they will probably need a bit of grinding before I switch to drilling/punching them out.

[Konstantin the Red]

Just finished one pair. Since its my first time I'm not tempering it, one reason is I don't even have a kiln and my oven doesn't get any hotter than 500F
.

Welcome and well come to the Archive, Ironic. May your stay with us be long -- and I'm sure it will profit you much.

You won't be heat treating any steel anytime soon anyway. A good deal of the original stuff was, well, primitively formulated mild steel anyway, and you really couldn't harden it. Not always knowing this, some armorers back in the day tried it anyway, as traces in the metal's crystallographic structure tell us. If there was enough carbon in the steel, heat treatments were successful. If not, it wasn't, no matter how they tried. Such variations might be found within the same, integral suit. They just didn't know what they'd get.

When you're in due course ready to do heat treats, you're going to be using fancier steel, not the 1008 to 1020 assorted mild steels (they fall in that range of carbon content: .08% to .20% C) you have lying around, but something like 1050 or even 5160. The first is a simple medium carbon steel, the second a medium carbon spring steel specifically designated "low-alloy," sort of a pretty high-grade steel's edition of sophisticated simplicity. These are steels you'd be buying new, from a steel place somewhere in town likely. But before ever you get to this kind of material, you should log lots of time shaping mild steel; go to spring steel like 1050 only when you are fully ready -- and have the equipment.

[Konstantin the Red]

On rivets: there are mail-order operations that can handle any rivet need you've got. You live nearest to the Chicago center for mail order rivets; there is at least one such outfit right there, and ordering out of Chicago may spare you some shipping costs. RJ Leahy may be famous and have a large web presence, but they do headquarter in San Francisco.

For armor work, use solid rivets. Pop rivets aren't strong enough, nor are the hollow two-piece rivets of leatherwork -- save those for leather, perhaps with plastic, but don't try attaching nice heavy metal to leather with these things except perhaps in a very limited, sheltered way. We do tend to favor copper rivets, with their burrs, for structural attachment of leather to metal, even though this is not at all a medieval type fastener. Some of us are persnickety enough or ingenious enough to steel- or brass-rivet a clip and D ring assembly, such as Tandy/LF sells, for leather attachments. Then we loop a leather strap through the D ring. Since what most often breaks in armor that's being used is its straps, this makes the most frequent kind of repair and maintenance quick and simple.

The kind of rivets we use aren't anything fancy, except for being solid only. Mostly steel rivets, some brass rivets (pretty) and some stainless. Rivets are always malleable; have to be. Flat head rivets see use making helms and deep helmets, because you can put the heads on the inside, prop them with a hefty stake like a T stake or an anvil's horn, and then pein the rivets down on the outside where you have room to swing. Dome-head rivets are very favored, particularly for articulated joints. The medieval style domey rivet looked about halfway between a modern hemispherical dome head and a pan-head rivet: a flattish dome. These can be shaped using a file. This is for when you get really artistic, and become a historical-armour snobbe -- and start spelling it that way, and wearing houppelandes, hose, and jeweled collars a lot! Those medieval girls go for men in hose, no kiddin'.

[Odd]

armour snobbe --

I giggled so much about this...

[Ironic]

I'm going to get a lot of information from you guys that I will need to pack in my head. But its all good stuff I need to learn.

Thank you all

[Konstantin the Red]

Never seen rivets be a problem in the same materials. Mild in mild is the most common, and never been an issue drilling out and replacing. In the occasion of a hard to drill out rivet, you can always chisel whack it from the outside, then tap it out backwards.

Or behead the rivet with the wheel of an angle grinder. Watch out you don't chew up the metal beneath the rivet head too bad. Also, give the remains of the rivet time to cool off afterwards; that will have become easily hot enough to blister for a minute. You know exactly what happened when your shop buddy says he's going to grind a rivet off now, you hear grinding, and then immediately an "Ow!" without even having to look. Grinding out always means darn-hot rivet.

[Ironic]

For leather, brettun's and Tandy are good, also try:

http://www.zackwhite.com/
http://www.realleatherpeople.com

I found some leather that I could use for my straps. Its the one on http://www.realleatherpeople.com the product was called "Big rolls" which was $25ea. What do you guys think of that product for straps? Yes or No?

[Konstantin the Red]

If the leather's heavy enough, it'd do for straps. Doesn't sound like the Big Rolls is particular about its weights, though. Does sound like a good general supply for an assortment of small to medium size projects.

The best leather for straps or belts comes from the upper half of a side, that portion nearest the beast's backbone. That leather is densest and quite a bit stiffer than the stuff down nearer the ragged belly edge. A strap from that stuff tends to flop about and anything held with it goes sloppy floppy also. Soft belly leather is better for leather garments and pouches.

That said, this is less of a problem with short straps and small pieces. Big pieces of plate generally want about 9-10oz thickness for durability. Small pieces can strap with the next size down, usually 7-8oz. That's also a good weight for interior leathers to a pauldron. Thinner leather than that may be used for covered pieces and brigs, and is going into pouches, garments, soft shoes, and the like.

Their latigo belts and blanks would have been cut from the spinal area of a hide. Much of the work is hence done for you and you don't have to get in trouble with a Strap-Cutter (tm) that wandered off its cut-line. They can do that; you have to steer alertly. Scrappy latigo remnants from places like Brettun's Village make good strapping if the available width suits. Armor straps with buckles are seldom over about 1" across. 1" and 3/4" seem about the most used widths in SCA construction.

[Ironic]

For leather on metal for my pauldron should I go with solid copper rivet or the none solid copper rivet? Sorry for so many questions.

[Konstantin the Red]

Don't worry about bothering us; we like talking and if we didn't want to be bothered, we wouldn't post here, would we?

If we're talking fastenings for straps and for the leather tabs that attach things by lacing them on with points, you might consider using brass rivets. The worst they do to leather is accumulate green gunk, and they don't rot it in a hurry. Make a nice little accent too. Frankly, the copper rivets and burrs aren't so handsome. What they are is low profile as far as making lumps on the surface goes -- they lie flat like flush rivets. Still, their new-penny look does not have a Middle Ages aspect. Accepted in the SCA, but perhaps best kept for hidden applications.

The solid rivets are always the strongest. Be wary of split or tubular rivets; they do not have the same ultimate strength. Under certain quite limited circumstances I might make something using two-piece hollow-tube rivets -- like a safety gorget worn beneath a camail. Something tasked with holding something else up, or something on -- solids. Wouldn't trust anything less. Might prefer sewing it all together. Not as fast, perhaps, but needs less equipment to field-repair.

Mild steel rivets will attack leather some, and invariably will stain the leather black around the rivet.

Large-area washers over the leather, even if you need to punch and snip them out yourself, are a very good idea. Too small a holder means the strap will rip out.

The D ring leather anchor is still a possibility, no? That can use any sort of solid rivet at all, regardless.

[Ironic]

OK thanks . By the way whats the D ring? :Edited: A D ring is for making your own straps right? I there a pattern on how to make different straps? Because I've never work with leather before.


And I'm going with "Aluminum Brazier Rivets" for my metal on metal. What do you think of that. If your wondering my plate is 14 gauge.

[Konstantin the Red]

Aluminum rivets to articulate steel? Steel wears aluminum. Even brass would hold up better. Is this a budget thing? Trying to scrimp on rivets means weak rivets and armor that gets downright deciduous. Use cut-down nails if you must; they are at least steel. Even the cut-away nail shanks can make flush rivets. Aluminum's cloudy-white appearance also doesn't look any too medieval. it looks Space Age.

There is no pattern to straps. Just get your length of strap material/belt blank/hide+Strap-Cutter, and chop off to length. The most involved bit is fitting the buckle, which punches two holes (for the rivet, these won't show up if you sew the buckle in) and a slot for the buckle tongue to pass through. Looks about like o == o at one end of the strap.

D-rings on clips to mount them to the metal are a refinement, not an absolute necessity. Tandy/LF sells packages of "Clip-n-Dees" which work very well. Either a strap end may have a hole in it big enough to larkshead a strap onto the D ring, or the strap may be forked into a couple of thongs and these knotted in the same arrangement as the larkshead, or the strap may be sewn into place on the D. This fastening method isn't period AFAIK, it's more the SCA-Engineered school of armor design and features. Anyway, that's what the D-ring method is for. The aluminum rivets would work for this comparatively light, non-articulating load. But that doesn't add up to a compelling reason to go out and get aluminum rivets.

14 gauge steel (.0747") suits SCA helmets, and maybe knee and elbow cops. The rest of your plate armor should be of thinner steel, for weight savings -- 16 and in some places 18 gauge. New guys often try making all of their armor way too thick, forgetting or not knowing yet that they are also going to want to move in the stuff. Armor's enough if a blow only stings, and you don't get a hematoma. Armor where you simply can't feel the shot anyway is too much, particularly for the SCA game.

The SCA game involves such a preponderance of circular attacks with all our weapons except the spear types and sometimes the halberd/poleaxe class, that most of the hits land upon one's silhouette, rather than one's centerline. We find that we can manage with relatively little coverage of the vitals as long as we have our corners (shoulders, elbows, knees, etc.) well covered. Bony spots need coverage, meaty spots can get away with little to none if you don't mind large bruises. Rattan does sting. Rebated steel kind of tries to dig its way through you -- a deeper owie, and not fun.

You haven't mentioned any local resources or advisors near you -- are you getting in with an SCA Shire or Barony? If not, what are you doing? I see Hooppole is a very small place, a wide spot on Rte. 78; likely nearest SCA activity is in Davenport, thirty-some miles off. I've seen worse. Most SCA is in cities and college towns. If you have transportation, it's not too tough to go play with the nearest SCAdians. If you don't, yeah, that's awkward.

Your SCA Kingdom is the Kingdom of the Middle, and Hooppole is located in the Region of the Midlands. A quick look doesn't show me any chapter in Davenport, but that doesn't mean there isn't somebody; only means they haven't tried to organize into a group.

Midlands Region Seneschallorum Some of those contacts at least should be good.

[Ironic]

So what do you suggested for rivets for metal on metal.I'm not going to use roofing nails, already tried and didn't work. Nails are to thin for the holes I cut which are 3/16d.

I don't know any other armoriers around. I do know some blacksmiths around but....I don't know if they know much about armor.
I think the nearest SCA group is Peoria which is about 1hr in a half away for my place. I do want to a least try the SCA out if not join it . I would like to get a group of buddies together so we all could get together and all go to the same place(a SCA group) at the same time. The only thing is I need to group of guys interested in this stuff.

[YMHoward]

when I was looking for a cheap riveting solution I swung past a hardware store with the drill bit that I used to make the holes I was riveting and asked for a nail the same diameter. When in doubt ask the shop people, they will know what they stock! (at least, usually)

Oh, and while I'm at it, I read your sig and I think you mean "The first casualty of war is truth"

Good luck with your projects.

[Konstantin the Red]

Roofing nails have shanks of about 1/8". Now you know why you're not using them -- ya need them 1/8" holes thar. 5/32" for an articulating rivet, so it has a fattish hair of clearance to turn with. But if you go repurposing some common nails, you're looking at buying some fat ones. At some point, the price of twenty-penny nails looks to overtake the price of rivets.

I recommend steel or brass dome-head rivets, or the flatheaded tinners' rivets, which I've only ever seen in steel. Sickle rivets run pretty big for this job, don't they? Some farm guys have gotten them.

You've never mentioned doing hotwork, so I'm not going to suggest fabricating your own rivets from steel round stock. A few seriously DIY guys have done just that. I think mostly to say they can. If you want to have one of your smithing neighbors make some rivets for you, that too might be an option.

Ya know what? Just go to Peoria by yourself the first time -- then you will come back with both enthusiasm and the details to pique your friends' interest, so next time they want to come too.

. . . I think you mean "The first casualty of war is truth"

The first causality of war being, I reckon, an oversupply of ambition. That and population/resource pressure. I know -- it's a strained usage, but my Webster's supports it.

[Ironic]

Is it that important to have washers for the rivets on my paulrons? If so, whats the preference for washers on pauldrons?

[Konstantin the Red]

Since we learned to punch out and snip handmade washers from thin-gauge scrap, it is at least admirably economical of our materials. They also look like the originals; thick, neatly circular washers are a feature you can date armor with -- as 20th-21st-c. reproductions.

Is it that important to have washers for the rivets on my pauldrons?

Why? Are you looking for an out? Nah, articulation rivets work better on washers, holding the piece together strongly and all that. If you can punch and cut, you don't have to buy.

Pauldrons, like late-model spauds, can have as many as three different kinds of rivet articulation: the articulation rivet, the sliding rivet, and the leather riveted to the back of the piece. The leather may need either a broad head like a roofing nail or the use of washer or fishplate to spread the load around on the leather.

[Ironic]

I put fluid film on my pauldrons so does it harm leather? Or anything I could wear under my pauldrons, like wool, mail, cloth, etc.