The Armour Archive

I hope this question can get honorary on-topic status for the armor construction forum, because I can't think of a crowd better able to answer it.

I am trying to stretch our equipment budget for our HEMA rebated steel group. I am looking (sideways) at stainless steel blades and cast metal guards.

Please don't get me wrong. I would never use a stainless steel sword. But ss is clearly functional for a knife, so the question is where to draw the line based on length, thickness, and blade geometry. Could an ss main gauche be functional?

As for cast metal guards (shudder), what I am (ill-)considering is buying some cheapo wall hangers and refitting the hilts to hanwei fencing dagger blades. I'm thinking a cast metal cross will stand up to rapier, but maybe not cut-and-thrust and likely-not longsword or arming sword.

*braces for tomatoes*

It appears that Darkwood Armory had in the past or will have in the future various inexpensive dagger kits. They might be a much better alternative for what you need.

You may want to cross-post this query in the Medieval Combat forum, since a number of the WMA people post there.

No, no, no...! Not a good idea. Even properly hardened blades tend to break, sometimes, and several members of my rebated steel group (yours truly included) bear the scars that prove how utterly terrifying half a blade flying through the air can be. An improperly made stainless blade would most likely break like glass.

I'm all for home-made swords. It's a beautiful craft, but you have to go about it properly.

Stainless steel is naturally harder than mild carbon steel but also more brittle. It's more prone to cracking or snapping. Of course, it can be hardened to spring temper, if you have the right steel mixture. The catch is, though, unless you know the exact composition of the steel no hardening facility will do the job for you, as they are likely to get it wrong, resulting in something as brittle as glass.
And don't even think about using an untempered sword. It'll bend with every strike and snap sooner, rather than later.

Stainless is fine for knives because they are short and don't have to endure a lot of stress. But you will find that the best kitchen knives are made of high carbon steel, which rusts but can be tempered to be very hard and take a much finer edge.

If you want to make a sword as an amateur, you basically have two options.

For starters, you may buy a flatbar of a suitable medium to high carbon steel (in europe EN45 or equivalent yields good results), grind it down, shape the blade, THEN have it professionally hardened (only worth it if you're doing a whole batch). You might be able to temper a short blade for daggers in the oven at home, but it's risky. There's a guide on the internet somewhere.

The other option is leaf springs, the kind that makes up your old pickup truck's suspension. I'm dubious, as they often have hidden fault lines, but some people swear by them. If you get a good leaf spring, the sword will be hard and very nearly indestructible. You have to hammer the curve out of them first, then grind them with a steady stream of water to cool the steel. It looses it's temper when it gets red hot, then air-hardens again, resulting in a brittle, flaky edge. It's a lot of work, but doable, potentially resulting in a very cheap sword.

There is a facebook group dedicated to small-scale sword makers who might be able to give further advice.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=ho ... 245&ref=ts

Hope that helps!
But seriously, please stay away from a home-made stainless blades, before someone gets killed.

Thallian wrote:Stainless steel is naturally harder than mild carbon steel but also more brittle.

Uhm What?!?! You might want to check some facts. There are hundreds of different types of stainless as well as hundreds of different alloys of mild/carbon. That sort of generalization will get you in trouble.

I'll agree with the rest of the post. Know the alloy you are working with, know how to treat it and use the appropriate temper for the job at hand.

With regards to the original post: If you are looking to save money by using stainless and it isn't because the rust is destroying the blades then you are moving in the opposite direction you want to. I can duplicate the mechanical properties of almost any mild/carbon steel with any temper you want to quote with a grade of stainless but I expect to pay 3-5 times as much for it. Stainless alloys ain't cheap and the temperable grades are less so.

Sean

Jonathan Mayshar wrote:I hope this question can get honorary on-topic status for the armor construction forum, because I can't think of a crowd better able to answer it.

Medieval Combat and Weapons page.

Doesn't AEMMA use Aluminium weapons occasionally? Maybe they might be a useful resource.

Getting yourself the spring stainless, or treating the stainless, and making a sword out of it, will end up costing you mkore than just buying some cheap longsword from Hanwei.

Steel weapons are not cheaper to make than buy, unless you already happen to have all the gear, and consider your time as nothing.

Please trust me.

JohannM wrote:Doesn't AEMMA use Aluminium weapons occasionally? Maybe they might be a useful resource.

Our armoured training and the rapier/sidesword program use rebated steel weapons. AEMMA uses tempered AL weapons for regular unarmoured training. They are slightly more expensive but much better tools than the cheap Hanwei steel trainers. Very low maintenance and safer too because of the edge width.

This doesn't help the OP who is of the opinion he can make his own training swords cheaper than the commercial products readily available today. He needs to find his own solution.

Sean Powell wrote:

Thallian wrote:Stainless steel is naturally harder than mild carbon steel but also more brittle.

Uhm What?!?! You might want to check some facts. There are hundreds of different types of stainless as well as hundreds of different alloys of mild/carbon. That sort of generalization will get you in trouble.

Sean

I admit, that is true. It was a terrible generalization and I do apologize. I'll try to be a bit more specific:

When I shop at our local stockist I'm basically being offered a limited range of industry standard steels. Most of them I never bother with.

At the bottom end you have what we call monkey metal. It's a low carbon steel with a high amount of impurities, usually recycled mix of different steels. It's heavy, very pliable and very cheap. Can not be properly hardened. Ever.

Next one up is a standard building steel, still low carbon, cast and then cold-rolled. Still very soft but work hardens okay. Can not be tempered but may be carburized in a BBQ and then quenched to make a (poor) knife blade.

Then comes a limited selection of medium carbon steels that are good for making armour out of. Even when unhardened they're already much tougher than low-carb steel.

My favorite for swords is EN45, a silicon-manganese steel with something like .55% carbon in it. It's very workable and got a very good impact resistance, which is definitely what you want in a rebated combat sword. Unfortunately it is still a bit too soft for an actual edged weapon, which is why it generally makes rubbish knives and sharp swords.
That is also why you don't want to sharpen a rebated blade made out of that stuff - it's a bit pointless and will never hold and edge as well as some of the better sharps on the market.

EN45 is conveniently sold in flat bars that can be shaped into crude, sword-like objects with an angle grinder and a belt sander. The end result is not pretty but we have half a dozen of such swords in my group and they have lasted the best part of 25 years. They're still being used as training swords, because they are HEAVY and build up muscle pretty fast. Pommel and fittings are simple lumps of low carb builder's steel, cut, ground and drilled to size, then welded or riveted on.

There are bars of stainless as well. I am not sure what's in them, but they are very soft to start with, then work harden extremely quickly and crack almost immediately. They don't know the composition at the stockists, so any attempts at hardening the stuff failed miserably.

I dare say if you know what you are doing, and with the right steel, you can make a good stainless rebated sword.
But I don't think it's feasible to try with what you can get hold of cheaply. For cheap homemade swords EN45 or leaf springs are the only way to go.

A very good reference point is http://www.westyorkssteel.com/ . Just look at the product section. That does not at all relate to what your local hardware store may sell, who usually flog whatever they can get their hands on cheapley.

I agree on the hanwei swords.
By the time you have all your tools sorted out, you could have bought one. They are a bit on the soft side, but usable for light contact sparring.

A few thoughts from a blacksmith who have been making weapons for more than a few years.

When I started I wanted a seax, but the only ones I found I liked where in the $300 range. Being me, I thought "I'll just make my own, how hard could it be?"

Well more than 10 years later and several thousand dollars in equipment and who know how many thousands of hours of my life, I still don't have my seax......

Moral? I love the hobby I discovered but it would be cheaper to buy a good weapon.

On the other hand.....

Some surviving period swords are of a hardness level equal to modern mild steel, swords so soft there was no possibility of hardening or tempering. Scandinavian sagas recount "straitening the sword under foot", blades too soft will bend under use and have to be field straitened by stepping on them. Granted these would not be the highest quality blades but they where present on the battle field in the middle ages and use for deadly combat. You COULD grind a sword out of mild steel, it would be a pretty crappy sword but you COULD do it. I am not sure a ground sword from mild steel would be worth the effort involved in grinding it, just based on the time required to grind the blade down. Of course you could forge a mild steel sword but then by the time you have invested in an anvil and a few hammers and a forge you are right back to the moral of my story.

If you really want to find a cheap way to get rebated blades I will tell you the magic secret.......

Step 1, find a weaponsmith

Step 2, show him how cool rebated steel combat can be

Step 3, lure him to the dark side and get him fighting with your group

Step 4, get him to make you some really cool rebated blades

Step 5, send me his email address so I can commiserate with him for being in the same boat......

Godric, it seems like being a weapon-smith is like being a cook - if you are any good at your craft you'll end up with more friends than you can shake a stick at. And the buggers always come back for more.

swords, blunt or sharp are not something to be made from poor steel.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Erm, ok, sorry, had to do that.

Really. Stainless, is just No. No, as in bad, bad, painfully bad idea.


first off: if you dont know what you're doing, its very, very easy to get it wrong, even with good carbon steel. Armourclass is a perfect example of that. theyhad one batch of heat-treatment go wrong about 5 years ago, and its still haunting their reputation, and they knew what they were up to.

If you dont get it right, you're going to get sawblades instead of sword-edges, as at least one maker I know of has a reputation for, much to the amusement of the many people who'd never buy a sword from him. Worse, you're risking breakages, and you really dont want a blade snapping on a dodgily done stop-block sending half a blade twanging off into the punters... or the other end through the target.



I make weapons, for rebated sparring and WMA. .And like bloody hell would I heat-treat any blade I'd made myself. normally, I dont even make blades for use in contact, I get them in from Armourclass, and hilt them up as a cutler, because that way I know I'm not putting participants at risk on a mistake.

my honest advice is, you're almost certainly going to find its cheaper to get a batch of kit, than making it, unless you have a tonne of gear already lying around, and a tonne of time to do the work too.

if you're technically inclined, you might want to look at CAD/CAM rapid prototyping to steel, and having hilt components produced, and buying blades in. it would likely be far more cost effective and safer than using parts of wallhangars, which are shit metal and a risk. an alternative would be lost-wax investment casting in steel, if you've got access to such, and someone skilled in sculpt/mouldmaking


edit:

I'd strongly reccommend EN45, or a US equivalent as a steel alloy for rebated use. its got exceptional impact strength, and good properties in crack-resistance. both idea for our use.

but really, its better to get blades from darkwood/hanwei/armourclass/binns/heron/albion/somewhere, and spend your time and money of the stuff which is easier to make, like padded gambesons and simple plate protection, make bucklers and wooden wasters for training, and all those sorts of peices, and spend good money on good swords, because they are the part where investment is well worth it.

I'd argue firmly against any contention that "the best kitchen knives are made of high carbon steel, which rusts but can be tempered to be very hard and take a much finer edge" -- anybody who's put Cutco kitchen cutlery into daily use, or even the second-bests (still quite good) like JA Henckels 4 Star, or Wüsthof, which can be gotten for quite a price in stores, knows that hasn't been so for sixty years.

I use and sell Cutco. The stuff comes out of the box comfortably dry shaving sharp. When I do service calls for people's veteran Cutco knives, I restore them to that condition or very near to it, and they'll stay that way a long time.

Cutco is heat-treated to 55-57 Rc, the blades are of 440A high carbon stainless (typical assay is 0.70% carbon content). The worst our product suffers is the stainless steel type of corrosion: small black pits, and you have to beat on it pretty hard to effect that damage.

The low-performance stainless steel KSO's that give stainless cutlery a bad name are of far cheaper grades of stainless and their edgeholding compares with that of the Swiss Army knife -- and likely not as good as that. Cheaply made, cheaply bought, not very good next to what can really be done when you're determined.

Wow. As usual, I'm amazed and grateful at the amount of time and detail people on AA give to answer a question. Even, as is apparent, a bad question.

I'll continue shopping around for people who can make inexpensive munitions hilts, but I'm convinced not to try lesser metal for practice weapons.

With the exception of AL, which was not was what I was originally asking about. I have a couple of Swordcrafts AL blunts which I really like for what they are. Charles' fine swords don't solve our money problem, but I may try to make some AL blades with scale handles (knife handles) like his, only without the good looks.

I appreciate the suggestion of posting on the combat forum, but really, I have my answer. Thanks again to all.

Jonathan Mayshar wrote:I'll continue shopping around for people who can make inexpensive munitions hilts, but I'm convinced not to try lesser metal for practice weapons.

I appreciate the suggestion of posting on the combat forum, but really, I have my answer. Thanks again to all.

one option you could try for such:

get a blade. darkwood, hanwei (they do rapier replacement blades, certainly, think they do others too), whoever.

using that as a fitting, make a master model of the hilt type you're wanting to make; ie, longsword, single hander, rapier, etc. (for what I'm suggesting, cup-hilted rapiers are certainly much easier than complex hilted ones.). I find making a master model from styrene plastic card/section, almost like a model kit, with lots of sanding and filling allows you to make a rigid peice.

once you've got the cross and pommel peices, you'll need wood for hilt grips - either billet ash or similar hardwood. for longswords, a llittle tip I use is to use engineer's hammer handles. they're ash, exactly like a square billet, but already turned to an oval shape, saving you a lot of effort for the basic shape.

then, take the plastic masters, and cast them in RTV silicone, with a plastic tube attached to allow an access vent.

get sculptor's/jewellers casting wax, melt and pour into the vent... throw it into the freezer to cool down for an hour or three, and pop it out of the mold nice and solid. rinse and repeat till you have 5, 10, 20 hilts, however you need, all in wax.

then, find a steel casting foundry in your local state/area/country/planet, and send the waxes (well packaged) off to be investment cast. (if you're flas, you can do 'em in bronze.)

Get back gorgeous steel hilt parts.

get needle files, start filing out the pommel socket, which seems to always be a bit tricky, and the cross socket to be a perfect fit.
polish the steel parts. slap the wooden handle in the middle. wrap it in a bit of goat's arse.

bingo. you've got swordhilts.
now go buy however many more blades, and make the batch you need.


and here's a photo of what that sort of thing looks like, done with exactly that method
http://3dfolio.com/jge/Del_Donna_Lightweight.jpg

Konstantin the Red wrote:I use and sell Cutco.

Konstantin, I suspect that the problem with such a steel is'nt that it cant hold an edge - its that it's not optimal for impacts on a rounded 2-3mm diameter edge, and rebated combat. In that context it is inevitably going to consist of edge-on-edge impacts (regardless of what Clements would evangelise), as well as edge on flat, and it'll get chewed up. if it were'nt then we'd be using it, and not silicon manganese carbon steels as we do over here.

if it were production of sharps for fighting, then yes, the 440c steel used is certainly more than capable of turning anyone into a rare kebab. but, exactly like SCA combat's rattan, rebated steel for sparring will take a hefty punishment over the years - much more so than sharps - one reason that the tangs on (for example) an albion swords' sharp, and an armourclass rebated blade are drastically different proportion. the shock(s) transmitted through to a rebated sword's tang is much more violent and regular than a real sharp would suffer, and will take a beating over much more time for a sword used for training every week, week in, week out.
no-one is infallible, and so those edge-on-edge impacts will happen even if the group's trying for edge on flats, and they will really mangle up even well tempered steels .

in my experience, using god alone knows how many interesting bits of steel over the years, from Armourclass, Kovex-Ars, Heron Armouries, Paul Binns, Albion, Lutel, Pavel Moc, and the "who made this? Dunno" swords is that that steel will burr up and get chewed up over time. there is no magic bullet make that is indestructable; Armourclass gets closest, as can be attested to by countless people's reviews of their kit. In terms of steel allows, one of the great exceptions to that general rule of getting chewed is EN45, which is tougher than most. Of course, it will get chewed up in edge-on-edge banging (and it hurts me every time I see some reeenactors smashing edges against each other in a show - I want to yell "no, you're doing it wrong!" and teach them i.33 and lichtenaur. ), but even in such abuses, EN45 will work-harden in such a way that after time it wont continue getting mangled into a snaggy jagged mess, but instead smooth off into a fairly smooth edge, almost akin to shotblasting in texture.

Of course, you may well have been practicing knife-fighting with those 440a stainless blades, and can show me as wrong - please, do, as I would love to learn of such tests and performance if so. but my gut feeling is that performance as a rebated edge for WMA use comprises of entirely different optimal characteristics to a cutting edge for household cutlery.

I now look forward to waking up in the morning, and looking like a total idiot as I've missed something you said.

Jonathan Mayshar wrote:...With the exception of AL, which was not was what I was originally asking about. I have a couple of Swordcrafts AL blunts which I really like for what they are. Charles' fine swords don't solve our money problem, but I may try to make some AL blades with scale handles (knife handles) like his, only without the good looks...

Sorry bout that...just thinking outside the box a bit with the aim of keeping you in metal simulators.

Good luck.

Suzerain wrote:Of course, it will get chewed up in edge-on-edge banging (and it hurts me every time I see some reeenactors smashing edges against each other in a show - I want to yell "no, you're doing it wrong!" and teach them i.33 and lichtenaur. ),

[warning: impassioned rant}

Yes, please do. It's my personal pet peeve.
My group does it and it ticks me off. I never used to in my old group and it feels weird. Entirely wrong. I half expect my blade to break at any moment.

When questioned, i got the following excuses:

1) We are supposed to parry with the edge because it's the hardest part of the blade (highlander film quote?)

2) Medieval soldiers wouldn't have had any training, so wouldn't have knows how to do it 'proper'.

3) If you parry with the flat your sword will snap because that's where it's most flexible.

But truth be told, I think the real reason is that the guys who run the show are all nearing their pension age and simply have no mind to change their age-old habits.
There's been a heated row between two groups in my area recently where someone claimed that 'deflecting' a strike, rather than blocking it statically presents an unfair advantage. Well, of course it does - that's the point though. If you fight more efficiently, you're going to come out on top.
In the end, we have been expressively forbidden to catch a strike on the flat of a blade, citing all sorts of strange concerns and excuses.

But the basic truth is just that people got into the habit of doing it wrong and they are too lazy or scared to change it, because they'd have to learn what they have been doing for the past 30 years or so all over again.

Ugh, I'm so thoroughly fed up with the fighting in re-enactment. I'm very tempted to bugger off and look for a better group...except I'd feel bad about leaving some of my mates behind.
And there you have it: here's me lame excuse...

[Okay, rant ends now. ]

Well, Thallian I disagree with you as to role of edge to edge parrying. However, those excuses you keep hearing...yeah those are indeed bull, and are the result of seriously lazy thinking.

JohannM wrote:Well, Thallian I disagree with you as to role of edge to edge parrying.

That is your right, and I can see from your web link that you know what you are talking about. But re-enactment combat does not relate to HEMA. At all. The problem is just that re-enactors won't admit to it.

There is a world of difference between, say, moving in to stifle an opponent's strike with the edge of your blade, as can happen, and purposely bashing edges together with gusto so the crowd can see the sparks fly, as you do in a show. (Flying sparks? I HATE flying sparks. It makes me cringe!)

And then there's the most ignoble of maneuvers, the defense against a lunge: whack him on the edge so hard that his sword gets stuck in the ground. For crying out loud! Talk about slapstick.
And the same people will then proclaim, apparently with a straight face, to uphold a proud western martial tradition.

And what winds me up most of all is that the crowd and fellow re-enactors just accept it as the norm. Why does nobody cry:"Rubbish, this! You ought to know better!"

There's Re-enactment and there's WMA. For some reason the two won't come together (with a few notable exception, I might add). It's rather a shame.

Thallian wrote:And then there's the most ignoble of maneuvers, the defense against a lunge: whack him on the edge so hard that his sword gets stuck in the ground. For crying out loud! Talk about slapstick.

Just to point out...

Bottom Left (and right)
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... &handle=li

Fiore wrote:... makes a fendente stepping out of the way and beating the sword to the ground...

Thallian wrote:That is your right, and I can see from your web link that you know what you are talking about. But re-enactment combat does not relate to HEMA. At all. The problem is just that re-enactors won't admit to it.

Bollocks

reenactment and WMA can cross-reference each other and benefit from each other. there are people out there who've done so for 25 years. I was fortunate enough to begin my studies under just such an individual, years back. Then there's groups like the Company of Saint Margaret in edinburgh, who are a direct branch off of the DDS, the founding members of the BFHS. and if they're not right, well, frankly, no-one is. (actually, no-one is right. we were'nt there to be certain, so we're as accurate as we can, and no more) And there's plenty of others too.

But there are just as many WMA groups (am I the only person who dislikes HEMA as a term just 'cos it sounds like some sort of medical procedure? "and then they had to give him a HEMA..." ) who are pretty awful too. Personally, I could give a list of "no edge contact" types whose opinions and egos are completely up their own arse, as there are reenactors whose ideas of fighting are equally up their arses.

Such, sadly is the nature of the art, it seems. Dear old silver would've fitted in quite well in some groups as a perfectly reasonable chap...

That said, Edge on edge happens. it will happen, it did happen, regularly. there are countless references to swords being ruined in fights. That said, there is also plenty of documented evidence in fechtbuch (particularly Lecküchner's messerfechten and Durer's illustrations for Dornhoffer) of the application of flat on edge. Clearly, the intention is to protect your blade through rotation to the edge, when possible.

the best analogy for this I've seen is referring to motorsports, particularly classic '70's f1, can-am, or similar. hanging the tail of the car out in a drifting oversteer is not faster - but looks far more spectacular. a clean line into the apex, and out again without oversteer is faster and tidier. The reenactors are normally doing a show, so they do the tail hanging out, smoke and screeching for the puners who know little better to go "ooh". the WMA'ers aim to do the clean, controlled line, that's less spectacular - but in reality, like the drivers entering the corner, sometimes circumstances dictate that grip goes, and the back end steps out, and there's oversteer; exactly the same as sometimes, in reality, you step, the other guy makes a quick transition to a zornhau or something, coming down, you need to get into, say, ochs in time, and the edge is'nt lined up right - and smack, edge on edge contact.

And one person aiming for edge on flat is'nt enough. if the other guy is'nt thinking the same way, your efforts are wasted, if every time you attack, you're hitting edge on edge because he's doing dirty great stop-blocks. (on which note, the solution to this is to teach the other guys. in particular, teach 'em that flat on edge will damage their weapons less, meaning less wear, less replacement, and less shock to the body. that tends to work as an incentive, particularly the wallet-denting bit)

That said, there are reenactors who are ignorant. I had the misfortune to move, and end up practicing with one group who were (with one or two exceptions, particularly a guy who was an expert with spear... I loved it. I was completely getting my arse kicked then! ) absolutely shocking. their idea of "combat" was pretty much a sequence of 5 or 7 hits, going around a clock face and stop-blocked, and then politely retrning the favour by blocking the other person making exactly the same set of hits while you blocked... and my protestations that this was not only completely wrong, wrecking their swords, and just plain looked shite fell on deaf ears.
I rather suspect that it wounded the pride of the group leader that I did'nt bow down to his awesome skills, and he got very agitated and angry at my explaining why the entire approach was utterly inaccurate.
He started to show how it was right, by doing these grotesquely over-sized swings "because the people can see them", and I instinctively just flicked into ochs, stepped forward (apparently, it's wrong to step into an attack. no-one ever did that.) so that langort gently sat at a position where if I'd not pulled the strike, he'd have been skewered through the head, while his over-done stroke was deflected off my flat and well away from me. This was repeated three times. each time, switching the stroke, from a langort to a krumphau that'd have taken his head off, and then a repeat of the langort, with a winden, and he ended up having such a hissy fit that I gave up because it was clear he was getting hysterical. A few more weeks of that sort of "practice" and I gave up, because it was a waste of my time, and nothing but drama.

I met the group again a few years later at a show... They still cant fight for toffee, swinging around like a bunch of village idiots, and still wont learn. some people never change.

but fortunately, such people are not indicative of the entire reenactment community.

Thallian wrote:And then there's the most ignoble of maneuvers, the defense against a lunge: whack him on the edge so hard that his sword gets stuck in the ground. For crying out loud! Talk about slapstick.
And the same people will then proclaim, apparently with a straight face, to uphold a proud western martial tradition.

against the lunge, its actually a perfectly valid action. it's referenced in Wallerstein, Thalhoffer, Paulus Mair, and I think in Fiore Dei Liberi too. personally, I like to respond if someone does that sort of move by deflecting their point down into the ground on my strong flat on thier false edge, slipping off-point to their side as I do so, and step in, rolling the blade round to the true edge over their cross, then smack the strong of the true edge into their throat while putting a knee behind theirs, and letting them go from overextended one way, to being forced back and over onto the ground.

that or if they've overextended forwards way too far, roll over their cross and bring the strong down hard on their wrists, and a left-handed grapple to the collar and pull them forward onto their own face.

perfectly accurate technique in both cases.

Suzerain wrote:
That said, there are reenactors who are ignorant. I had the misfortune to move, and end up practicing with one group who were (with one or two exceptions, particularly a guy who was an expert with spear... I loved it. I was completely getting my arse kicked then! ) absolutely shocking. their idea of "combat" was pretty much a sequence of 5 or 7 hits, going around a clock face and stop-blocked, and then politely retrning the favour by blocking the other person making exactly the same set of hits while you blocked... and my protestations that this was not only completely wrong, wrecking their swords, and just plain looked shite fell on deaf ears.

I know exactly what you mean. Everyone does that in my area (the midlands, that is. I dare not be too specific, lest someone from my lot recognizes me and goes off on a 'Dude, you said we're shite on the internet' sulk).
Where does that combat system come from? Who invented it? It's got nothing to do with actual combat and looks from a distance like badly done Morris dancing.
Any form of footwork is also completely frowned upon. Any deviation from the clock face scheme and people yell at you for being competitive.

I ran into a fellow at Tewkesbury once, facing him in the battle line (and i use that term very loosely) and he was doing exactly the same. So obviously there's more than once group who does that sort of 'fighting'.
Not fun at all. It's boring - and very frustrating, too.


I was genuinely surprised about that passage from Fiore though. Shocked actually. It just goes to show - you live and learn. I take my hat off to you, good sirs.
Mind, it still looks entirely different to what the 'clockface' brigade is practicing. It is also the only permissible defense against a lunge that we (and probably other groups doing the same bumfluff) are allowed to use. I have since inquired and apparently we do it so there's less chance that it bounces up and hits someone next to you in a battle line.

I met the group again a few years later at a show... They still cant fight for toffee, swinging around like a bunch of village idiots, and still wont learn. some people never change.

but fortunately, such people are not indicative of the entire reenactment community.

Then, I suppose either you are indeed very fortunate or I very unfortunate. My experience is exactly the reverse - to find someone who treats combat displays as performing an actual martial art is a rare treat. Everyone else sticks to the pantomime play version of sword fighting.

And one person aiming for edge on flat is'nt enough. if the other guy is'nt thinking the same way, your efforts are wasted, if every time you attack, you're hitting edge on edge because he's doing dirty great stop-blocks. (on which note, the solution to this is to teach the other guys. in particular, teach 'em that flat on edge will damage their weapons less, meaning less wear, less replacement, and less shock to the body. that tends to work as an incentive, particularly the wallet-denting bit)

You should think so, but as you said, some people won't learn. One guy in particular had half a sword blade fly into his face, which resulted in a brief trip to A&E. It might have been a dodgy blade (Hanwei practical knightly sword), though I'm sure the repeated overhead swings meeting stop-blocks didn't help. At around the same time I joined with my flat parrying habit and got yelled at by the same guy for doing it because it 'breaks swords'.

But what is one to do? Take the easy way out and leave them to it or try to argue the case? And worst of all, if I did leave them to it they'd only continue to put on displays like these at public shows and distort the general public's perception of what fluent, dynamic combat should look like.

Back to the topic of cheap rebated blades...

2 of my favorite blades are a pair of Trimontina 26" machetes. I took them to the grinder and ground off the edge then put a slight radius on the corners. Treated like this the "blades" are right about 1/16" thick at the edge, which is right in line with my other rebated blades
Once that was done i stripped off the old handles and re-mounted them with basket hilts and better grips.
Cost me $20 for the blades and a few hours grind them down and re-hilt them.
They're not particularly accurate, but then again, I was aiming for post apocalyptic when I made them, so it wasn't an issue. I have found that they make for a decent messer simulator, and as a plus, they're nigh indestructible so far.

If you have lots of time, and patience, you could do what I did.

Go to a commercial spring maker and ask for some already hardened and tempered barstock, that it still flat. I got some fot $15/metre(40").

With a few cutting discs and a helluva lot of time, I had myself a longsword:







It's been going strong for about three years nowin some pretty fierce WMA practice.

I got the pommel from a decorative fencing place that sold all sorts of cast objects.