Ooph, greaves suck...

[Koops]

I did the reading, looked at many many many pictures, listened to all the advice I could. I have come to this conclusion...they just suck. This is simply a difficult piece of armor to make well. There is not a straight edge on the whole piece.

After many tries, got the ankle shaped right, but for some reason the feathering is just eluding me. I see it, I really do. But something is sticking in my brain that wont let me hammer em right =/ How in the world does any armorer sell a pair of cased greaves for $225, you have to be losing your ass or doing something wayyyyy different than I am doing.

If there is a shortcut to banging these out, I am all ears. Seems like experience is the only real teacher for these monsters. I do however have a nice pile of oopsies which will turn into loaner crap =)

[Halberds]

You have to kill it with your flamethrower...

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/halberds/FirstGreave.jpg[/img]

Best of luck little pilgram.

Hal

[Frederich Von Teufel]

There is no shortcut to greaves, only experience.

It does help to work on lots of cased vambraces first though, greaves are like a more complicated version.


Frederich

[Halberds]

Is that what these tools were for?



And you don't have to kill it with your flamethrower?

Hal

[Koops]

Been using 16g and working it cold. My god do you have to hit it ALOT! Sent you an email about a saddle stake hal, save me please...

[Krieger]

This may sound crazy, but I LOVE making greaves. They incorporate a little bit of all the metal forming techniques you've learned so far and do so in very subtle ways. They take patience, an eye for line, and the ability to be smarter than the metal...and metal can be pretty tricky, if you let it.

If someone asked me to make them a pair of greaves for $225, it would be cheaper for me to pay them that amount to go away than to take the job.
Nevertheless, I am still a true believer that there is a time and a place for everything, including quick sets of greaves...it's just not my thing

You are absolutely right in stating that experience is the greatest teacher but there are some insights I could share that might make it a little easier for you. If you have specific questions, drop me a line and I'll do my best to shed a little light.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hiya Koops, There is no doubt that cased greaves are the hardest pieces of armor to make that there is. Im not sure why either, Mine always come out looking too much like popeye calfs. I charge alot for a set of mine because it takes me aboutu 4 days to complete a set, Maybe 5. Theres no doubt theres better looking ones out there for cheaper but I cant afford to make them for any less. Maybe Ill get faster at it in the future and will be able to bring my prices for them down.
The cheapest set ive ever seen is at therionarms.com, For like 110 dollars you can get a set of metal hinged cased greaves. Granted the shaping is not the best but they look nice and are priced right.

Take care

Pitbull

[Payn]

If someone asked me to make them a pair of greaves for $225, it would be cheaper for me to pay them that amount to go away than to take the job.
.

I'll take 10 sets at 225, thanks!

[Halberds]

LOL... Now that is a fine deal.

[Koops]

http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1105.html

OK, now I am not judging, I am sure these are fine greaves if just a tad on the sloppy side as far as fit goes, but, I am not visualizing how they made em.

Mine have an abundance of metal pushed in on the ankle part from the shaping. Granted, I am sure they are using a perfected pattern so have a lot less extra steel than mine do, but if you want it to almost hug the ankle for stability and wearability, you have to start with a bit extra and compress it. Either they ground it all out, or for construction they started with the ankle compressed and dished out the entire upper portion.

I cannot see these being dished, that would take forever and there is no way you would get a real smooth line. I can see the transition line on them just above the ankle, so that would suggest that they were raised at the ankle, I just dont see the left overs from the raising.

Am I seeing this all wrong or what?

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I would imagine that the $110 wonders are not raised at all - they are most likely welded construction from multiple pieces.

Jiri Klepac shares his pattern and process in this thread:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ht=greaves

[Jurgen]

If I was doing production quantity greaves, I would hammerform them over metal forms. The hard part would be making the forms to hammer over in the first place. You would also need a form for every size you wanted to make and one for left and one for right. Once you had the forms, I bet you could crank out two pairs a day pretty easily.

Jurgen

[zachos]

Greaves are the thing you look at to tell you if the armourer is any good. Unfortunately there are less of the good than the bad.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

2 guys IMHO

1) Gunther of Orkney
2) Carlo Carignan

I have seen a few others, but these two guys seem to understand that a human lower leg seen from the front looks a lot more like a German U boat
than a railroad car. Both their greaves fit admirably.

[Koops]

Well, not terribly interested in doing them as production, and I dislike welding. Not that I don't do it on my helms, lets not get nuts, but the rest of the pieces I make, want them as close to authentic as I can get.

I have the ankle shaped pretty well. I am sure after I make 100 more I will be laughing at what I consider 'pretty well' now, but I am not ashamed of them. The transition is killing me and I don't understand why. I feel like I want to raise the entire piece even tho that is not needed. When I am feathering the bubble out, I really just want to raise it all the way to the top and just angle the piece subtly so it feathers naturally instead of giving me what I believe is a transition line. You cant see the line with a cursory look, but with a critical eye, you damn sure can.

I know I am being way to critical, but I am not a production armorer so it is not like I need to do them quickly or anything. Why not get em just right?

Ah well, back to the workbench. Will post up some pics as I get a chance, let you boys evaluate. I think I know where the weaknesses are, but never hurts to have another eye looking at em.

[wcallen]

Greaves are a cool piece of metal sculpture. They can be done very well and not so well. Some people really enjoy them, others hate them. I find that I actually like working on them, I just hate finishing them.

If I was doing production quantity greaves, I would hammerform them over metal forms. The hard part would be making the forms to hammer over in the first place. You would also need a form for every size you wanted to make and one for left and one for right. Once you had the forms, I bet you could crank out two pairs a day pretty easily.

Jurgen

A long time ago when we got an order for several pairs of legs with half greaves (front only) we built a form. It mostly worked. Still a lot of cleanup and we had to 'tweak' the results to be left or right. The idea was a lot like one of the saddle stakes but it was greave sized and shaped like the ankle part with a crease down the middle.
It did make producing lots of them easier, but it still wasn't trivial.

Now I just hammer them a lot. I end up with a combination of raising and dishing and end up hitting pretty much every bit of the metal. I also use heat. I find heat to be very nice when necking the ankle in.

In the past I have done them several different ways. I won't say that any of the weird ones are all that good, but they are entertaining and help you think about moving metal in novel ways. Maybe sometime when I have another get-together we can talk about the kookiest ways to make greaves without welds. I might win.

Wade

[Halberds]

Think this set would help him?

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... Hammer.jpg

The raising hammer moves metal more in one direction than the other.
The buisness end of this hammer is re-ground, just like P. Thaden showed me.

Hal

[Koops]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50161289@N08/?saved=1

Two shots of what is turning out to be a set of shovel greaves. I am real close to giving up on the cased greaves, I cannot even pattern em right. I can't visualize how they are going to go together. I know they are a bitch, but the principle is similar to vambraces and I can knock those out. But something about the way the greaves join, how the pattern needs to be laid out...I am not getting it.

I have looked at plenty of patterns, well, not plenty, but a few, and it is eluding me. I am almost to the point that I am going to make vambraces for my lower legs and just shape them to within an inch of their stress level =) At least then I would have a straightish edge to work with...lol. Or, could just make em wrap around the front and back too much, make em fit, then just slice a straight line down all 4 sides so I can hinge em. Hey, if I pound them totally flat afterwards I can use em for a pattern!

Greaves suck

[BNRichard]

I feel your pain Scott. You've seen mine (right one that is). There's a reason I have not finished it's mate - they are mentally taxing. I like heat, it does help to isolate the area that needs to move.
This is also one piece of armor that I think really does require a few specialized tools. (saddle stake, proper hammer and heat source).
At least they make the task easier.
I'll ping you on PM.
Richard.

[Koops]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50161289@N ... 004729169/

Sort of documented my left greave. Frontal only because cased are killing me. Good enough for the field and the fit is excellent. Again, 100 greaves from now I will be laughing at these, but feel good about this one now =)

My homemade raising hammer is too sharp, but that is why we have Hal. Took the cop out method and just ground off the ickies...the finish came out surprisingly smooth. They could use a bit more shaping, but figuring my next set will come out better through 'trial by fire'.

[Josh W]

You know who made really awesome greaves?





Patrick Thaden, that's who...

[Aussie Yeoman]

Koops, a couple of suggestions:

The rear half of full greaves does not butt up against the front piece. There is significant overlap. So having 'extra' on the outside is a Good Thing. In fact, having a little extra around the edges is a Good Thing for all armour.

Don't look to a pattern for something as unique as a greave. Rather, you should look at the unique leg you have to fit.

How so?

Have the subject wear the leggings they will wear in combat. Wrap their leg in cling-wrap, then use a non-stretch tape to cover more than the greave will cover, being careful to avoid wrinkles and kinks in the tape.

Using a felt marker mark the ankle bumps and significant anticlastic curves and bits to be especiall dished. Mark in the seams and cut along them. Flatten them out as much as you can, trace it onto paper, then add a margin for safety.

There you have it.





These pics aren't quite up to snuff, but you get the idea. When they're actually *on* the leg the seams are straight and vertical.

I plan on making these in the same fashion as those in the thread by Jiri.

Dave