The Armour Archive

So I'm hoping that someone with the know-how is feeling generous.

I am starting the planning stages on a coat of Whisby plates. I like the look of this:

http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoa ... front.html

So the questions that I have are:

1) How thick do the metal plates have to be if they are going to be overlapped like that? Is 22 ga sheet metal thick enough? 18 ga.? 16ga seems like it would be too think. I'm concerned about the ease of cutting that many little plates.

2) How thick and what kind of leather should I use? 9oz sole leather? Soft leather jacket sorta leather?

3) It needs LOTS of rivets. I could make them but there is already so much work to do, are there any recommendations for a short cut?

4) inside layer: fabric, leather, or nonexistent?

BTW, this is not intended to conform to SCA regulations, but is intended to be a reasonable recreation of authentic armour. This is going to be worn over a gambeson and chain hauberk, just so you understand where this is going to be worn.

Brother Justin wrote:
1) How thick do the metal plates have to be if they are going to be overlapped like that? Is 22 ga sheet metal thick enough? 18 ga.? 16ga seems like it would be too think. I'm concerned about the ease of cutting that many little plates.

I would think that 20ga mild steel would be fine. Or if you can find it wide enough the spring steel banding manufacturer's use would work.

2) How thick and what kind of leather should I use? 9oz sole leather? Soft leather jacket sorta leather?

I would think anything thicker than 2-3oz leather would bind and conform to the shape.

3) It needs LOTS of rivets. I could make them but there is already so much work to do, are there any recommendations for a short cut?

Depending on just HOW authentic looking you want to go, you could use short roofing nails, clipped down.



I"d stay away from galvinized and you will probably want to rub out the shiney.

Hi there

Firstly, good luck.

I agree with the bits and pieces mentioned above entirely. Additionally though you might want to consider machined, hand made effect nails. There are a few suppliers in the UK but should be equivalents in the US, if you can't find any PM and I will send you UK suppliers that I know of.

They cost more than standard roofing nails, but a lot less than hand made originals and, IMHO are almost indiscernible from their hand made counterparts.

All the best

Graham

As long as the leather won't streach under the load you should be fine.
I have been useing 3-4 oz seconds from a local furnature factory.
Usualy a small blemesh that makes the leather useless for upolstry gives me a great price break.
Quick rivets will speed assembly but make sure your useing solid brass.

The brass plated type eventualy will start to wear through and rust.

Here's the original 24 wisby http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=31276

Hmmm...a reasonable recreation not intended for SCA combat.

You can find spring steel banding (the type that intended to strap items to pallets for shipping) reasonably easily, at nearly zero cost (shippers/ recievers tend to throw this stuff away once they've cut it off a box/parcel), and it's obtainable is some extremely varied sizes. You should be able to find something that is appropriate to the plate width for Wisby brig 24 and is between 18 and 22 guage thick. This should be sufficient for your purposes.

For nails: the originals were likely tinned wrought iron. You certainly don't need to drive yourself insane trying to recreate the hundreds you will need. There are still a few suppliers who make round head cut and forged nails which only need a small amount of shaping to bring them to an appropriate appearance (though many can be used 'as-is') and tinning can be easily done at home for a reasonable small cost. Roofers nails could even be used though the period appearance declines. You should be able to find a nail that satisfies your needs via Google.

Off the top of my head (I don't currently have access to my armouring library) I don't recollect if we know anything about the covering of Wisby 24. The leather would not have been incredibly thick, nor garment thin either; garment leather, in the modern sense meaning something approximately 2-3 oz (each "ounce" representing 1/64 of an inch in thickness), would be too thin to withstand much abuse. Too thick is just as much of a problem, not allowing you the mobility for which the design of a brig strives. A veg-tan in 4-6 oz should do nicely. The leather would have been vegetable tanned (not chrome tanned) and likely either cow, goat or sheep hide, although deer, elk, pig, even horse would not have been impossible. It's also possible that the leather was treated for wear (surface treatment to stregthen and protect the leather) though more likely that it was left in it's normal state. While possible to 'stuff' a leather (treat it with conditioners, oils, waxes, etc.) it would have been a rare brig to have recieved such effort and attention.

Inside layer: linen is my strong recommendation; one or two layers in a 5-8 ounce linen. Linen does the best job in this application.


Frederich

spring steel banding?

Very interesting, I should hit the scrap yard. Has anyone found it to be 1" to 1 1/2" inches thick?

-J

Brother Justin wrote:spring steel banding?

Very interesting, I should hit the scrap yard. Has anyone found it to be 1" to 1 1/2" inches thick?

-J

Not THICK but wide.

Don't rule out using canvas for the shell either, or even a linen/wool combination. It is cheaper than leather and I admit I like the look of it a great deal. Just a thought. I would also suggest 18ga steel. 20 seems a bit light, to me. I would worry that normal wear-and-tear could deform 20ga plates.

+1 on the Linen shell.

Mine is working great and no real issues.

Best

-H

Benedek wrote:

Brother Justin wrote:spring steel banding?

Very interesting, I should hit the scrap yard. Has anyone found it to be 1" to 1 1/2" inches thick?

-J

Not THICK but wide.

I found an almost endless source of 3"+ wide spring banding at a landscape supply. Every time I pick up some stone or soil, I rummage the bins like my Bag Laurel taught me many years ago.

I haven't put a caliper on it but its around 24ga. at a guess. Dandy for gauntlet fingers and faulds. I hadn't thought to make a CoP with it... Hmm... maybe that jack I've been mulling.

Benedek wrote:

Brother Justin wrote:spring steel banding?

Very interesting, I should hit the scrap yard. Has anyone found it to be 1" to 1 1/2" inches thick?

-J

Not THICK but wide.

Indeed, wide. I'm not the Hulk.

Landscape supply... good idea. I shall have to hit the yellow pages and go on safari.

Eltz-Kempenich wrote:Don't rule out using canvas for the shell either, or even a linen/wool combination. It is cheaper than leather and I admit I like the look of it a great deal. Just a thought. I would also suggest 18ga steel. 20 seems a bit light, to me. I would worry that normal wear-and-tear could deform 20ga plates.

Light for taking a sword, or a SCA club? The intention is for WMA and defending against spears and swords, not getting pounded by inch and a half thick rattan clubs.

Here's a cop in a Hungarian museum, It appears to have the original covering. To bad the front shot is blurred. http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hungary/budapest_zolorda/index.html

Kel Rekuta wrote:

Benedek wrote:

Brother Justin wrote:spring steel banding?

Very interesting, I should hit the scrap yard. Has anyone found it to be 1" to 1 1/2" inches thick?

-J

Not THICK but wide.

I found an almost endless source of 3"+ wide spring banding at a landscape supply. Every time I pick up some stone or soil, I rummage the bins like my Bag Laurel taught me many years ago.

I haven't put a caliper on it but its around 24ga. at a guess. Dandy for gauntlet fingers and faulds. I hadn't thought to make a CoP with it... Hmm... maybe that jack I've been mulling.

I've got the blackened maille for it, but I've been in search of some pallet banding to make a "maille and plates" Turkish get up.



Alas, it's another project in the works that has been for a while.

Brother Justin wrote:spring steel banding?

Very interesting, I should hit the scrap yard. Has anyone found it to be 1" to 1 1/2" inches thick?

-J

Construction sites where they are putting in storm sewers or sanitary sewers also use the wide banding to hold the pipes together for shipping. Most of those sites are happy that someone hauls them away so they do not have to. BUT...ask the site foreman if you can have it . Lumberyards also use it to band lumber...

I don't even mean for getting hit. Just wearing it and moving it I fear could deform 20ga, especially since there are so many of them all moving together. Even if you just throw it into your car, I would worry about the plates bending. I could be wrong about that, though. It just something to consider.

If you are planing to be contacted in any way with it, though, then I say with greater certainty that it is gonig to dent. Given that the plates aren't shaped to add strength, 20ga will dent; it doesn't take much for steel that thin.

Eltz-Kempenich wrote:I don't even mean for getting hit. Just wearing it and moving it I fear could deform 20ga, especially since there are so many of them all moving together. Even if you just throw it into your car, I would worry about the plates bending. I could be wrong about that, though. It just something to consider.

If you are planing to be contacted in any way with it, though, then I say with greater certainty that it is gonig to dent. Given that the plates aren't shaped to add strength, 20ga will dent; it doesn't take much for steel that thin.

My first "coat-of-plates" was around 24 ga. The plates never deformed, although it wasn't a historically correct style.
If you have the plates like Visby No. 19, then 20 ga. should be more than enough.

For combat use I recommend 18ga mild steel with decent overlap. You might also want to put a gentle curve into them to keep them from deforming too quickly upon impact. It will also make them lie flush against the carrier material, which prevents chafing and excessive wear and tear.
The easiest way of doing so is to cut a decent curve into a thick block of hard wood, use the top as a press, the bottom as a mould and hammer everything down with a mallet.

I've also found a good and cheap alternative to leather, though it does require some proficiency with a sewing machine:

make a sandwich out of 3 layers of canvas and 2 layers of soft but sturdy padding, such as coating weight wool or cotton hopsack fabric. It must not stretch more than the canvas.

Layer it like this:

Canvas
Hopsack
Canvas
Hopsack
Canvas

This traps tiny little air pockets in the coarse weave of the hopsack padding, which act as a really good shock absorber. Finish everythign off with bias binding for a good foundation for a Coat of Plates. The fabric lends itself to embroidery and decoration, too! For example, you can use Cotton Velvet or nice Wool for a really posh looking top layer.

And don't worry about rivets tearing out - it's very unlikely to happen, especially if you have at least 3 or 4 in every plate.

But do make sure you don't 'punch' holes into the fabric. Use a large knitting needle to gently prise the weave apart until you can ease a rivet through. Do not use a sharp awl to do this. If you cut the weave, everything will eventually unravel. For extra durability you can brace each rivet with a little washer of felt or thin leather on the outside. You can cut these into pretty shapes for an even more ornate look.

Can you tell I like posh armour?

16g with it over lapping. any lighter may bend from a blow( ie from spear,sword, arrow, poleaxe, SCA, and lance), and cause a problem. 5oz leather will hold plus give you more flexability.

Eltz-Kempenich wrote:I don't even mean for getting hit. Just wearing it and moving it I fear could deform 20ga, especially since there are so many of them all moving together. Even if you just throw it into your car, I would worry about the plates bending. I could be wrong about that, though. It just something to consider.

If you are planing to be contacted in any way with it, though, then I say with greater certainty that it is gonig to dent. Given that the plates aren't shaped to add strength, 20ga will dent; it doesn't take much for steel that thin.

No. Really - no. Its spring steel designed to hold bundles of heavy stuff together. You can't bend it that easily especially once overlapped like a properly made CoP. As a single strip, sure - you can bend it across the narrowest part. Overlap them a third of the width, rivetted to a foundation - nah, it won't be bend with rattan weapons, short of a nuclear duke strike.

Thanks everyone for the replies, I have a plan now... just need to find the steel. 'Find it' being the operative term. I already have everything else except the nails I'm going to use for rivets.

If y'all are interested, I'll keep you posted.