Leather Cuisse Thickness

[RenJunkie]

I love working with sole bends. I know, I'm probably the only nut job who does, but I love the consistency of them, they harden beautifully, and I can shape them smoother with a hammer than thinner stock. In another thread Vitus mentioned that with all his experience in leather working he feels that sole bends are too thick, as they cause the knee cop to be too far from the leg. I'd never thought about this before.

So, for hardened leather cuisses, what is the "ideal" weight of leather? With my light bone structure, I tend to prefer the idea of thick heavy solid pieces. But, I was going to go with 10 oz for my thigh, as my thighs are plenty meaty, and I have it on hand.

What do you all think for thickness? Just cuisses for this thread.

Thanks!
Christopher

[Agnarr]

I love working with sole bends. I know, I'm probably the only nut job who does, but I love the consistency of them, they harden beautifully, and I can shape them smoother with a hammer than thinner stock. In another thread Vitus mentioned that with all his experience in leather working he feels that sole bends are too thick, as they cause the knee cop to be too far from the leg. I'd never thought about this before.

So, for hardened leather cuisses, what is the "ideal" weight of leather? With my light bone structure, I tend to prefer the idea of thick heavy solid pieces. But, I was going to go with 10 oz for my thigh, as my thighs are plenty meaty, and I have it on hand.

What do you all think for thickness? Just cuisses for this thread.

Thanks!
Christopher

I agree with you, and use sole bends for most of my armour. I have lighter leather here now i bought to do holsters, and i am contemplating doing thighs with it as well, so i am watching this thread.

[GvR]

I too made my first cuisses from soul leather. For this set, I made them out of 10oz. As far as taking a hit, they are better for me as they let in just enough sting that I notice but not enough to really hurt. The soul leather had me a little rhino.
The 10oz doesn't hold it's shape as well over the long run, but I am not really having any problem with it.
Will soon be graduating to metal anyway, but I think these legs will go into my "remember when" box.

http://tinyurl.com/2wvpycm

[RenJunkie]

Uber spiff, GvR.

Did you bake harden them, or leave them soft?

Thanks!
Christopher

[GvR]

I water hardened them with a diluted solution of wood glue and hot water, and rolled them onto a roughly thigh shaped roll of towels to dry. Just make sure the water isn't TOO hot. 180 degrees or so.

The hard part was coming up with a pattern for the studs. For that, I made a copy of the pattern and turned it 45degrees. Then I made a grid of 2" squares and punched a hole at every intersection. Then I laid the pattern over the cut piece (before shaping and hardening) and marked the holes. After that, it was about 2 hours with a hammer and punch.

Another hard part was putting in the rivets ( they are cheap 2 part dome rivets) into a curved cuisse. Adventures in finding a narrow anvil.

[Varukh]

i used saddle skirting leather for mine. it is about 13-15oz. leather. didn't harden it though.

and GvR...for a narrow anvil...try a long trailer hitch. (that works pretty well for me)

[schreiber]

Thick cuisses are probably an SCA-ism.
I usually walk funny in mine (15oz or so). That alone would be a reason not to use them in period. We all put on our armor, and the farthest anyone ever walks in it is from the far side of the lake at Pennsic up to the battlefield.

Also, having a thick cuisse makes it easier IMO to design an articulated knee that will
a) have enough room to account for the width expansion of the human knee when bent 180 degrees (something that probably didn't happen in period),
b) have enough room inside for the padding that we need to be able to fight on our knees (again, something that didn't happen in period).

I'm also pretty sure that a lot of armor in period wasn't necessarily designed/built to allow for the user to withstand getting clubbed for 2-6 hours a day for years. It was a tradeoff between weight (marching/riding around) and not getting killed. I wouldn't be surprised if the earlier, non-hardened stuff was mostly for two purposes, first, to make sure that incidental blows (stuff we wouldn't call good) didn't incapacitate the wearer, and second, to make sure that stuff we would call good didn't outright kill the wearer.

The point is, the really thick sole bends are never going to look quite right. They even managed to make Henry VIII look like a spindly-legged guy with some of his armors.

On the other hand, I don't think anything will really look quite right and still be suitable for SCA use. Even the high-end plate you see on the field has modified legs to account for the on-the-knees fighting we do.

So the only thing I'd really worry about is whether the wearer can walk/ run without getting all chafed in the groin.

[Kilkenny]

Thick cuisses are probably an SCA-ism.
I usually walk funny in mine (15oz or so). That alone would be a reason not to use them in period. We all put on our armor, and the farthest anyone ever walks in it is from the far side of the lake at Pennsic up to the battlefield.

Also, having a thick cuisse makes it easier IMO to design an articulated knee that will
a) have enough room to account for the width expansion of the human knee when bent 180 degrees (something that probably didn't happen in period),
b) have enough room inside for the padding that we need to be able to fight on our knees (again, something that didn't happen in period).

I'm also pretty sure that a lot of armor in period wasn't necessarily designed/built to allow for the user to withstand getting clubbed for 2-6 hours a day for years. It was a tradeoff between weight (marching/riding around) and not getting killed. I wouldn't be surprised if the earlier, non-hardened stuff was mostly for two purposes, first, to make sure that incidental blows (stuff we wouldn't call good) didn't incapacitate the wearer, and second, to make sure that stuff we would call good didn't outright kill the wearer.

The point is, the really thick sole bends are never going to look quite right. They even managed to make Henry VIII look like a spindly-legged guy with some of his armors.

On the other hand, I don't think anything will really look quite right and still be suitable for SCA use. Even the high-end plate you see on the field has modified legs to account for the on-the-knees fighting we do.

So the only thing I'd really worry about is whether the wearer can walk/ run without getting all chafed in the groin.

First, you mean 90 degrees, not 180

Second, it's a serious fallacy to apply logic to a question such as this, because we simply don't have enough information. If we're having trouble (walking funny, can't run, or whatever) it probably means we have done it wrong. I'll wager there are a tremendous number of ways of doing any armour bit "wrong" and a much more limited set of ways of doing it "right". So it may be that there's a poor material choice, or it may be a bad pattern or a bad fit or...

I wore sole leather cuisses for quite a few years, and I've heard that they are still in use, now with their third or fourth owner. I never had any problem with them making me walk funny, they worked quite well protecting my legs. Really had no complaints about them, just sort of got tired of the old set They were not hardened.

I've seen pictures of a set of "lobster" style upper legs that I believe are late 16th or possibly early 17th century made of very heavy leather. At least as heavy as sole bends. So, the only instance I am aware of with a surviving piece of leather leg armour is very heavy leather. And articulated...

[schreiber]

First, you mean 90 degrees, not 180

Edit... on second thought, actually I did mean 180. If you're standing and you touch your rump with one heel, that heel travels 180 degrees. I'm very demanding with my articulations.

Second, it's a serious fallacy to apply logic to a question such as this, because we simply don't have enough information.

Well, I'm mostly going by what period leg armor looks like vs. what SCA leg armor looks like. There just isn't enough room in period leg armor for the padding I need.
I'll be more careful to say "I need" instead of "we require", because I just checked and we only require 1/4". But there have been too many times that I personally have been grateful for 1/2" or 5/8", given what it is that we're doing.
I also represent the smaller guys, and 1/2" of padding is probably more significant to me, both in the protection I get from it, and also the amount of volume it adds to the knee.

If we're having trouble (walking funny, can't run, or whatever) it probably means we have done it wrong. I'll wager there are a tremendous number of ways of doing any armour bit "wrong" and a much more limited set of ways of doing it "right". So it may be that there's a poor material choice, or it may be a bad pattern or a bad fit or...

Well, what I was getting at is more the volume of the knee cop. That is what makes me walk funny - in fact a little bow-legged. The necessary volume of the knee ( because of padding ) is what I think makes sole bend cuisses fairly ideal, because it naturally puts room in the knee for extra padding.

(Also, the bow-legged thing isn't a serious hindrance: it's mainly an "oh yeah... dammit" that I go through every time I kit up - it doesn't stop me, it's just a little uncomfortable and takes some readjustment. I forget about it in a half hour. But it's worth mentioning.)

I suppose that if I were to make knees very form-fitting to myself, out of steel, and went with the bare minimum of 1/4" padding, and no articulations, then I wouldn't have to bow-leg it. It would also make it harder to deal with thick cuisses, and it would make some really fun battles - ones where I've spent the whole time on my knees as part of scenario - a lot less fun.

[fghthty545y]

10 oz leather?
here I was thinking my 6 oz leather was really thick...

[RenJunkie]

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys!

Do you have any pics of that 16th/17th century leg you were talking about, Kilkenny? Sounds like something I'd like to do someday.

6 oz is belt weight, JoJo. I see a lot of belt blanks in the 8 oz range. Now, if you stitch two of your 6's together, you get a 12 which ought to be plenty heavy for any piece. If you plan to heat harden them do NOT use contact cement on them before the oven....it sucks. lol

For narrow riveting (almost all my riveting, honestly), I use a hammer underneath as my anvil. I just move it where I need it. Works in most situations, but not all. I think cuisses may be big enough for it to work on.

Thanks!
Christopher

[Konstantin the Red]

Sledgehammer fixed into place is one solution.

T stake, a/k/a rivet setter, is another. Crossbar is either heavy-wall steel pipe -- gas pipe or Schedule 80 plumbing pipe -- or 2" round stock, welded to a post.

Heck, for the DIY guy a length of steel pipe two or three feet long and resting on or socketed into wood posts at either end would handle this riveting job.

[Kel Rekuta]

Guys - if your source of "sole" leather rates it in ounces (1/64ths of an inch) then it isn't sole leather. Perhaps you have conflated the "10-12 iron" thickness of readily available sole bends with the ounce scale used with strap and harness leathers?

Once veg has been barred to a particular density it is measured in "irons" (1/48ths of an inch) in North America, millimeters everywhere else. In fact, metric ratings haee become standard as very little of the sole leather sold in N.Am is actually tanned here.

That and metric is just more sensible than imperial measurement.

[RenJunkie]

Not talking about sole leather (at least not me). I'm specifically looking for a good weight that *isn't* a sole bend for cuisses.

Almost certain to use sole bends for all the other leather bits, tho.

Of course 10 oz bends are awesome. but they're 10 oz. And can be used for soles (old tyme sole bends if you will), but they're not modern compressed and engineered sole bends. All the sole bends I've found are sold by the pound, not the square foot.

Think I may give that pipe idea a whirl sometime....

Thanks!
Christopher

[Konstantin the Red]

The stuff you keep describing keeps sounding to me like what Tandy/LF sells as "saddle skirting" -- heavy oz, vege-tanned, workable by all leatherworking methods. 12-15oz?

[RenJunkie]

The stuff I"m describing? No. I prefer to work in shoulders for the lighter weights (best cost to quality ratio). The bends my store is currently carrying are lighter than 10oz and expensive as crap. Now for the sole bends, I don't get a lot of them (expensive, and some days I just can't find one worth buying), but when I do, they are definitely sole bends. I have used saddle skirting n the past, but because they're so huge, I've had problems with thickness variation. I'll be cruising along at about 14 oz, and then get to an area running 12oz. Or thinner. Most skin for the least money, but my experiences in the past with them were not good.

Thanks!
Christopher