late 14th century maille: how much was used under plate?

[fghthty545y]

Perhaps these mail pieces we keep seeing on the knee are a tube of mail that surrounds the knee, like on the St, Michael image.
Wouldn't that also help to '"pad" the poleyn?

Can't see if anyone has mentioned this but there are some images that are clearly mail bands (or possibly vioders) for the knees that go under the cuisse/kneecops shown in early 15thC sources (I can think of a St. Michael for one). I realise this is just outside of the period of discussion but I thought I would point it out.

After many years of looking ( I have seen a LOT of 14thC effigies in person - esp English ones) I think a lot of the time is its just full mail - BUT light, fine and much better tailored mail than most modern folks doing 14thC use...
However, We do know they had those top and skirt style mail bits from Visby and they did use Pisans/standards - at least in Italy (plus whater you interpret Pauncer (sp) as) ... so it is possible. I guess they started as full mail and began to supplement with plate until the had full coverage... during this time I suspect they began to experiment with ditching some of the mail but how and when is purely speculative and written sources tend to indicate at least full mail on the torso and arms (well at least 3/4 sleeves on the arms)... and often mail on the legs also...
Now- I do know someone who wore full chausse under his leg harness and it looked sleek and very period BUT he was a tall slim and fit fellow ...

ps.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Dragon.jpg

This is not the one I was thinking (same period though) of but shows what I mean- You can clearly see BITS of mail used rather than full chausse on the legs...

[Dragon_Argent]

Perhaps these mail pieces we keep seeing on the knee are a tube of mail that surrounds the knee, like on the St, Michael image.
Wouldn't that also help to '"pad" the poleyn?

Yep- I think that is certainly a possibility... even likely. I also think it possible that some of the mail flaps somethimes seen hanging from the bottom of demi-cuisse and the greaves (over or tucked under the sabbatons) are attached to leather strips on the underside armour itself.

To put this all in perspective we need to remember that a mail haubergeon under plate NEVER went out all together and in some areas (like Italy) was to remain the more common option (as opposed to vioders etc.) throughout the 15thC.

[Gaston de Clermont]

The thing I have done most recently is Galleron's armor. I made the habergeon have sleeves with taylered elbows that stopped just inside the vambraces.

Mac- did you sew the sleeve to a leather strip? Does anything keep it from flopping out when he fights?

[Mac]

Gaston,

There is nothing keeping the sleeves of the habergeon in the vambraces. The sleeves can not slide easily up the forearm because they are tapered. I believe they stay in place and don't cause any trouble; or at least, G has not complained to me that they do.

Mac

[Dragon_Argent]

Gaston,

There is nothing keeping the sleeves of the habergeon in the vambraces. The sleeves can not slide easily up the forearm because they are tapered. I believe they stay in place and don't cause any trouble; or at least, G has not complained to me that they do.

Mac

Yep I always wore 3/4 sleeves inside the vambrace/Never had any trouble with it popping out.
By far the main issue with full mail under plate is the body armour. If it has the correctly tight waist you must make sure your arms are raised when it is done up or it will be too tight to put your arms above your head due to the pull from your waist - armpit- sleeve area...

[Galleron]

The thing I have done most recently is Galleron's armor. I made the habergeon have sleeves with taylered elbows that stopped just inside the vambraces.

Mac- did you sew the sleeve to a leather strip? Does anything keep it from flopping out when he fights?

The sleeves are well tailored, so there's a certain amount of friction from the doublet. The elbow strap helps keep them in place, as does the tubular geometry of the sleeve. The vambrace is also a snug enough fit that there's some friction on the small part of the sleeve beneath the vambrace.

I've never had a problem with them flopping out.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

To what extent were "voiders" wired onto armors?

The St Louis Art Museum has a 16thC suit with voiders wired onto the gap in the elbows. But I've never been certain that sort of thing wasn't added later by Victorians.


Field Armor
1510–25

Wilhelm von Worms the Elder (active 1497–1537) and others
Nuremberg and Landshut, Germany

steel, leather, and modern restorations

68 x 30 1/2 x 19 in. (172.7 x 77.5 x 48.3 cm)
weight: 40 lb. 15 oz. (18.6 kg)

Museum Purchase

Accession Number: 171:1926a-n

On view in Gallery 125

[Keegan Ingrassia]

The St Louis Art Museum has a 16thC suit with voiders wired onto the gap in the elbows. But I've never been certain that sort of thing wasn't added later by Victorians.

Just like they cut all the rolls off all the edges, right.

[Dragon_Argent]

I don't think added mail to plate is so far fetched when you consider camails/aventails...

[elden]

I think there's a poleyn in the Musée de l'Armée with a strange edging that might have attached a voider? Are there any pics of that exhibition online?

I also recall a haubergon there with an hourglass shaped butt-flap that came up through the legs and hooked to the front of the mail at the hip bones for groin protection. It might be relevant to this discussion? http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... si&img=277

Edit - I found the poleyn! http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... si&img=473



Does anyone know more about it? Talbot has previously dubbed it "...a possibly real knee that has been greatly mucked about with! "

[Baron Alcyoneus]

The St Louis Art Museum has a 16thC suit with voiders wired onto the gap in the elbows. But I've never been certain that sort of thing wasn't added later by Victorians.

Just like they cut all the rolls off all the edges, right.

You'd be surprised at what people in the 19thC did with artifacts that were hundreds of years old. Spruce them up a bit. Missing some semi-precious stones? Add a few modern faceted ones to "improve" it.

[Mac]

Does anyone know more about it? Talbot has previously dubbed it "...a possibly real knee that has been greatly mucked about with! "

I feel a bit more positive about it than Talbot does. I think it is *probably* a real knee that has been mucked around with. I think it likely to be a real knee because of its uncommonly good shape and characteristically haphazard placement of the articulating rivets. Few are the fakers who get these things right. The shell like fluting of the wing suggests a date of 1410 (+ or - 10) by its resemblance to the elbow wings of some English brasses of that time.

It's in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris, and is published in J.P. Rousseau's "Les Armes et la Vie" , 1982.

The knee appears to be locked into a permanently flexed position by the addition of a couple of (brass?) rivets which pass through the crest line of the cop and into the lames. I presume this was done be the same vandals who riveted on the anomalous mail fringe. No doubt, some 19thC. collector paid handsomely for this "objet extraordinaire".

Perhaps I should not be so harsh about the ill treatment this object has endured. Had it not been gussied up this way, it might never have found its way into a collection. Until recently, isolated knees and other such "boring" fragments were not held in high regard by collectors. It is better that it has survived in its present condition that not to have survived at all.

Mac

[Signo]

I have the feeling that someone could have misinterpreted holes on the edges made to rivet a latten band in place, and then added that meaningless maille patch. I hope someday someone will remove it. There could be another chance: maybe these were real armour parts used to make a mockup statue, for example, the armours of Mantua, were mounted over papermache figures and were painted. Maybe this piece was part of some of these kind of compositions, this could explain why it is locked by maille rings. Are there examples of those statues wearing maille?

[Galleron]

To what extent were "voiders" wired onto armors?

The St Louis Art Museum has a 16thC suit with voiders wired onto the gap in the elbows. But I've never been certain that sort of thing wasn't added later by Victorians.


Field Armor
1510–25

Wilhelm von Worms the Elder (active 1497–1537) and others
Nuremberg and Landshut, Germany

steel, leather, and modern restorations

68 x 30 1/2 x 19 in. (172.7 x 77.5 x 48.3 cm)
weight: 40 lb. 15 oz. (18.6 kg)

Museum Purchase

Accession Number: 171:1926a-n

On view in Gallery 125

Assume for the sake of argument that the voiders were part of the armor during its working life. If so, it was a very rare solution, because every other armharness I know about lacks not only voiders attached in that way, but the holes where wire would have attached them

[Baron Alcyoneus]

That is mostly what I think, but I do recall a number of greaves where there are holes for the attachment of mail running to the toe-cap of (generally) Italian suits.

[Galleron]

That is mostly what I think, but I do recall a number of greaves where there are holes for the attachment of mail running to the toe-cap of (generally) Italian suits.

Yes, but that's a significantly different application from protecting the inside of the elbow, which requires a much greater range of motion. Also, a mail foot protection doesn't need to interact with elbow wings or elbow straps.

It would be an interesting project for some armorer to reproduce the wired on mail elbow voider in St. Louis, and see how well it worked in practice.

[Galleron]

Looks like there were a variety of approaches, but there seems to be pretty good evidence of mail voyders in the 1380-1385 Lancelot du Lac

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html

I've updated my interpretation of the Munich panzerhose:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html

I now believe that particular piece was an independent defense rather than intended to be worn under plate legs.