The Armour Archive

after destroying about ten rings attempting to flatten them, i was going to give up and ask for some advice on keyring maille (japanese weave), but i looked through the essays to make sure i didn't miss anything, and came across:

http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/rivet_revgeorge/

In it they have thicker wire than i do, and anneal it with a bbq, and manage to flatten them with a hammer!

I was hoping somebody could shed some light on where i might be going wrong, so here is the process i was failing at.


Ive got 3/8ths of an inch diameter 14 guage galvanized rings. (i know galvanized is bad, but its what i have to use, ill do better when i buy more wire)
I got them hot in a bbq for a few mins via lump charcoal and a bike pump (i doubt they were at the transition temp though) then let them cool outside.

I then proceeded to flatten the ring with a hammer a few strokes.

Overlap it, then flatten some more.
Unfortunately after they are overlapped, they tend to jump apart when i hit them with the hammer, netting slightly flat, unusable rings.


Has anyone ran into a similar problem, and figured out how to get around it?

Chocrates, I have the same problem with overlapping and flattening that you have. Here's my solution. I flatten the ends before I overlap. Slide your butted ring down a long nose pliers and squeeze the join so that your ring has a D shape to it. Now you can hammer just the ends as flat as you want before overlapping. If you don't put the D shape in, the ends will flare out to far. I would definitely recommend buying some annealed 16g re-bar wire from home depot, it's only about 5bucks for 3pounds. Using a 7/16" winding rod gives me about a 10mm id.

Yep! That's what I do! It works beautifully. You don't even need to flatten that much before overlapping, just enough to have a bit of a flatness to it.

Actually, I read in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33995&start=35) that it is likely that in many period maille pieces studied that flattening was performed prior to overlapping. Check it out! It's about the coolest thread on the subject ever! The only problem is that a lot of the picture links are broken... grrr...

for riveted your definitely using to heavy of a gauge of wire. most Indian made rings seem to be 9mm, that's just a hair shy of 3/8" and they use 18 gauge wire, that's about half the thickness you're using. so that's probably your first problem.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Riveted ... m-Scratch/

that's my entire process, and those rings are 16 gauge 11/16" id.
step 3 is how i flatten my rings. the piston is made from an old brake caliper and the anvil is made from some scrap steel i found with a conveniently sized hole. I found the piston method of flattening rings to be the easiest and to yield the least bunk rings. annealing the rings before hand also makes a big difference. I do it with a propane torch, but leaving them on the BBQ coals with some air should do the trick.

all said, after making a thousand or so rings i decided that i was better off using pre-made Indian made rings.

To clarify, I only flatten the ends to be overlapped only slightly. The rest isn't flattened. Then I overlap and then flatten just a biiiiit more, but not so much that the overlap becomes the same thickness or thinner than the rest of the ring. The overlap should be slightly thicker than the rest of the ring! It makes the piercing process a bit harder, but it can still be done!

Alright i feel really dumb.....

My "anvil" is a flat piece of unhardened iron, a weight i salvaged from the bottom of a lamp.

I was trying to flatten the rings on my carpet.

I tried it on my concrete porch, and they were flat enough in one or two hits that i could overlap them and flatten them a tad more without them jumping apart.



I appreciate the comments though.

I was never able to consistently flatten rings with a hammer.
I tried using a 1" wide dumbbell bar as a die, and struck it with a 3 lb min-sledge several times. This gave me more consistent results., with fewer deformed rings.

JoJo Zerach wrote:I was never able to consistently flatten rings with a hammer.
I tried using a 1" wide dumbbell bar as a die, and struck it with a 3 lb min-sledge several times. This gave me more consistent results., with fewer deformed rings.

Ive been doing it with a ball pien hammer as a die.


How did the dumbell hold up after a while?
The hammer is pretty soft, so when i hit it with the sledge it deforms a tiny bit.
After a while it will have to be reshaped i imagine

The dumbbell bar would flatten out a little bit where it was hit with the hammer, though the side touching the rings was unaffected.
The hammer was hard steel, the bar was softer. (from the 80's)
I ended up giving up anyways, though, because I would usually destroy my rings when I drilled holes in them.

I found myself a solid piece of round stock about an inch in diameter, and then purchased a short piece of one inch pipe. They fit perfectly together. Annealed ring on the anvil, place the pipe and bar over the ring, hit with hammer. The pipe just means that you are not actually hitting what you are holding and works fine.

I use the same method as Armourkris and cut my rings with an overlap. Before I had less than a 25% success rate on getting rings flattened properly with the overlap. Now, it is up to about 90%. I prefer to anneal before flattening. The scale seems to make a small difference in keeping the overlapped ends from sliding off each other.

Hmmm... I simply use an anvil (a cheap-ass harbor freight pathetic excuse of an anvil... definitely as good if not worse than the lamp base you are using, Chocrates), a ball pein hammer and a propane torch handy at all times to anneal. I cannot stress enough the need to anneal before hammering the rings. I agree with Red Dragon about the scale from annealing helping as well. I consistently get well-overlapped and adequately flattened rings with just these tools, though it took me a bit of practice and 100's of failed rings to get it right... The toughest part for me seems to be punching the hole for the rivet... I've almost got that figured out and can share with you what I've learned in that department thus far if you wish.

I don't find the piston necessary for flattening, and for reasons detailed in the thread I linked earlier using a piston tends to yield an overlap region that is too flat for maille with characteristics comparable to the real deal. Among the keys to making historically accurate maille that is as strong as possible (according to Erik Schmid!) is getting an overlap that is thicker than the rest of the link, even after punching the hole through, setting the rivet, and swaging the overlap and peining the rivet.

That's not to say using a piston makes for bad maille, though... there are lots of people that make good maille even with rings I would consider a bit too flat.

Link to where you buy them please?

Armourkris wrote:for riveted your definitely using to heavy of a gauge of wire. most Indian made rings seem to be 9mm, that's just a hair shy of 3/8" and they use 18 gauge wire, that's about half the thickness you're using. so that's probably your first problem.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Riveted ... m-Scratch/

that's my entire process, and those rings are 16 gauge 11/16" id.
step 3 is how i flatten my rings. the piston is made from an old brake caliper and the anvil is made from some scrap steel i found with a conveniently sized hole. I found the piston method of flattening rings to be the easiest and to yield the least bunk rings. annealing the rings before hand also makes a big difference. I do it with a propane torch, but leaving them on the BBQ coals with some air should do the trick.

all said, after making a thousand or so rings i decided that i was better off using pre-made Indian made rings.

http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon ... 017-p.html
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon ... 0e9-p.html

:3 Icefalcon carries 'em. And I know Historic Enterprises used to carry them, though now they have brass ones in stock. http://historicenterprises.com/arms-and ... 1_141.html

These rings are fine, I guess, but the overlaps are paper thin and, though better than butted, are not very strong at all. Personally, I think if you are going to go through the headache of making your own riveted maille, might as well make your own rings. But the savings are considerable buying your own rings... I think a shirt already made costs about 5 times as much at the end of the day vs. making it yourself.

JoJo Zerach wrote:I ended up giving up anyways, though, because I would usually destroy my rings when I drilled holes in them.

That's what annealing/normalizing is for. Also drifting the holes open rather than drilling them. And making a point of not using aluminum for this -- it can't take contortions like these without fatiguing and breaking.

Andeerz wrote:Hmmm... I simply use an anvil (a cheap-ass harbor freight pathetic excuse of an anvil... definitely as good if not worse than the lamp base you are using, Chocrates), a ball pein hammer and a propane torch handy at all times to anneal. I cannot stress enough the need to anneal before hammering the rings. I agree with Red Dragon about the scale from annealing helping as well. I consistently get well-overlapped and adequately flattened rings with just these tools, though it took me a bit of practice and 100's of failed rings to get it right... The toughest part for me seems to be punching the hole for the rivet... I've almost got that figured out and can share with you what I've learned in that department thus far if you wish.

Please do. my drill bit idea is failing. im thinking of using a nail as a punch, but it may be to soft

Edit: my phone is stupid

Get a box of masonry nails and reshape their heads by filing or grinding. They are harder metal to drive into mortar.

If you give your rings a good flattening on the overlap a prick punch works.

Masonry nails work pretty well if you grind them to a very fine point without ruining the temper through overheating. The prick punch is also a good yet more expensive idea, as if you eff that punch up or it breaks, you're out a few bucks. Also, as it is, it's likely too thick to work with rings and overlaps of smaller diameters.

Also, don't use a drill since if you are going to make riveted maille with the same looks and more importantly strength of the real stuff, you need to use a punch as it doesn't remove much if any metal from the overlap which is necessary for a tight and proper riveted overlap.

I use masonry nails, personally, though I have broken them quite a few times since I'm still figuring things out.

Currently I have a modified arbor press from harbor freight for punching holes in the overlaps. I utilized Clang's design (thanks dood! ). I basically made this (http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/tool%20 ... %2001.html) but I use a ground masonry nail in place of the leather punch and I don't have the plastic surface shown there. Instead I use a metal surface with a small hole in it as the die to allow the masonry nail bit to pass through a bit after piercing the overlap. I use this tool since I am not good enough to punch holes by hand reliably and for some reason I didn't feel like making punching tongs.

When making this thing, be sure to use a hard metal (like a tiny piece of tool steel, or even the top of a masonry nail!) for the die. Do not try to use mild steel or anything that will easily deform after repeated punching. And also, don't use more force than is needed to punch the overlap, or else your bits will have a short life. These two things are my latest discoveries.

After figuring this punching situation out, I am going to have to figure out the best design for an even trickier tool: the rivet peining/overlap-swaging tongs. I will certainly share what I find when I get to that.

If you want to make punching tongs instead or have any other questions, I HIGHLY recommend you join the rivetedmaille yahoo group and check out the pictures. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille/ Also, Julio Junco Flores and Pekka are two of the nicest doods ever and make great stuff that I would wager approaches the quality of even Erik Schmid's stuff. They are good people to go to for help and info, and also have posted good photos of their tools and methods.

Also, this thread (viewtopic.php?t=33995&highlight=riveted+maille+tools) read it thoroughly! It has excellent information! Anything Erik Schmid says about riveted maille is to be trusted!

Hi

I've also modified an 1/2 HF arbor press for punching rings. It's been a learning process, but the scrap rate has been going down with practice.

The first mod was to remove the stock table and tap the hole that the table spring-pin pivoted in for a 5/16-18 hex cap screw. The existing hole wasn't exactly the correct size, but it was close enough to tap without needing to drill out the base.

The table was replaced with a disk of steel from the drops bin of a local steel yard. The disk I happened to find was 3 ½" diameter and 5/8" thick. I drilled a hole in the center of the new table to pivot on the 5/16" bolt. I fixed a masonry nail with the head cut off in the end of the ram and used it to scribe a circle around the central bolt hole. A 3/8" hole was drilled and tapped on the scribed circle to hold the anvil bolt

I've been using 3/8" grade 8 bolts as anvils. To prepare them the grade markings are sanded off the heads. I've been annealing the bolts to make them easier to drill. It's been possible to drill them hardened, but the tiny bits tend to break.

There are more pictures of the modified press that I could post if there is any interest.

thansen

A 1/16" hole is drilled off center in the bolt head. The reason for drilling off-center is to allow exactly lining up the punch tip with the center of the hole in the anvil by rotating the table and spinning the anvil bolt. When the punch is exactly lined up on the center of the die the table is clamped down . I've been putting three die holes in each bolt head. After drilling I've been hardening them.

When a hole gets chewed up I can switch to a new die hole without having to replace the anvil.

One thing I've noticed while using the punch is that the fire scale will tend to fall off the link and get compacted into the whole when you see that happen it's a good idea to stop and use a small bill wire or toothpick to clear out the scale or the hole in the anvil will become packed tightly with material and the rings will not punch cleanly.