What's the easiest way to get in to fluting?

[Buster]

I want to be able to flute couters and poleyns in the 14th century style, (like this http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/otho_grandison/image/121/large/ ) though I don't really have any of the tools, and was wanting to know the easiest way to get started. A stake is probably more historical, though is using a chisel easier?

[Halberds]

My first fluting stake was a RR spike.
Clamp it in the vice and hammer over the top.
It works rather well.

Best of luck on your quest.

Hal

[Konstantin the Red]

Brick/masonry chisel or cold chisel, 1" across or smaller. Blunt the edge into a small radius, and likewise round the corners to prevent surprise bumps. Some reshape the edge into a shallow curve, sort of like ) but not so deep, to fit into curved, dished pieces well and also to steer around curves in the fluting easier. There's your stake if you don't want to buy one from Halberds or somebody. Not a lot of difference between a stake and a chisel here.

Fix this modified brick chisel into a vise to use, or make yourself a post to put stakes in and have excellent all-round access to the piece -- an advantage that a stake and a piece in a vise doesn't have.

Start with a mallet and pound the metal straight onto the edge of the stake to get a bit of a groove started for your stake's edge to fit into.

Switch to the hammer face of a 16oz ball pein hammer, striking from either side of the flute line to encourage the metal to take up a ^ cross section at the flute or crease. The flute's edge will only become crisp with a bit of filing or grinding to turn the rounded edge into a crease. While most of the shaping gets done with a hammer, the finishing gets done with file or grinder or sanding belt.

Railroad spikes are about 3/4" square. You can take it from there.

[The Iron Dwarf]

Hal did a tool called a flute o matic, not period but I hear it works well

[Koops]

I use a chisel to set the flute with a tree stump to support it. To bring the flute out I use a crowbar in my vice. It is not terribly difficult to start fluting, just got to want to do it and have the patience for it.

[beastlybabe08]

Are you sure that those are flutes? I always have trouble telling what's leather and what's steel on 14th century stuff, because there was such a huge mixing of styles and materials.

[Konstantin the Red]

Flutes didn't pop up much until the fifteenth anyway, Beastlybabe. The fourteenth seems to favor appliqué borders -- the addition of decorative strips of metal to pretty up the edges of plates.

[Thomas Powers]

Draw the path of the proposed flute with a sharpie on the metal *first*, start it from behind with a DULL chisel with an arc'd end so you can walk it down the line ===) not ===| on a stump or a lead, (or tin), block.

Then flip it over and start telling it that it wants to be a flute with a hammer---can help to grind the hammer head so it's more rounded to fit in the curve of the flute---ballpeens can often be found dead cheap at garage sales and fleamarkets---I buy them when they are US$1 and for rare *SPECIAL* ones I go up to $2... I usually buy them without the handles as I want to set my own handle anyway ($1 for handles---I buy seconds with cosmetic damage in places where I'll be rasping it off anyway to reshape the handle to fit my hand.)

[beastlybabe08]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Maybe Buster just meant to flute them like them to look like ones in the 14th?

Anyway, all I've ever used is a chisel either hammered down onto or over the top for fluting, but I kind of want some specific stakes.

[Buster]

Are you sure that those are flutes? I always have trouble telling what's leather and what's steel on 14th century stuff, because there was such a huge mixing of styles and materials.

Yes, I'm sure they're flutes. I've seen other, similar effigies in greater detail, which clearly depict flutes in use at the time.
Likewise, I've seen no evidence for leather knees this late, or of this style. The style that looks to be cuir boil with metal strips is a lot diffirent, and stops showing up after the 1320's.
(Not trying to sound confrontational, just mentioning what I've seen)

[Buster]

Thanks for all the responses! Everyoen seems to suggest a vice, but what do you attatch the vice to? (Mines attatched to a 2x4 propped over some weights, and is useless for hammering!)

[Thomas Powers]

Well I would not suggest a vise but rather a *post vise* AKA *leg Vise* AKA *Blacksmith's vise* as they are designed to be hammered on. Most machinist vises are cast iron and will break under very little hammering unless you have one of the great old chipping vises that ran over 100 pounds!

As the name indicates you can fasten them to a dedicated post, Attach them to a post---I have a large one attached to a utility pole that holds up the shop roof or attach them to a corner of a sturdy workbench.

The "leg" transmits the hammer force to the floor so you can use a 4# hammer on it without destroying the work bench---or the vise.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

+1 to Thomas.



I've got one similar to the smaller one on the left, and it really is the best thing for holding stuff while getting beat upon.

[losthelm]

I have had luck with a large bench vice. I use extra long stakes that ground out on the table just over the 4x4 leg. it works OK but I loose a bit of working surface from the shape once I have time I plan to build a stake plate that would mount directly to the table.
The stake plate would be 3/8" sheet and use a standard stocket that matches my stakes.
Mass is an important part of forming surfaces like dishing forms, anvils and stakes.

[Konstantin the Red]

Thanks for all the responses! Everyone seems to suggest a vise, but what do you attach the vise to? (Mines attatched to a 2x4 propped over some weights, and is useless for hammering!)

Workbench, dude, and built massive for its size. It can be fairly small, like three feet on a side. Or go bigger than that, as your space allows. You need some how-to for a simple strong bench entirely of two-by planks? Thing goes together with saw, hammer, drill and wrenches, as well as the use of carpenters' square and a tape measure.

Vise = squeezey thing. Vice = nasty thing.

Poundy vises are the leg vises described above. Still surprisingly cheap at flea markets and other used tool venues. Sometimes needing replacement springs, which if necessary a blacksmith could make up for this smiths' tool.

A mechanic's bench vise is not built to be hammered on, but is very satisfactory for all other vise tasks: holding, helping bend stuff over, etc.

[wcallen]

Thanks for all the responses! Everyoen seems to suggest a vice, but what do you attatch the vice to? (Mines attatched to a 2x4 propped over some weights, and is useless for hammering!)

As others have said - a post vise is a really good start.
But whatever you do - machinist's vice, post vise, stake plate, things bolted down, you will want a stable, secure thing to attach it to.

You can build very heavy and stable stands or a table. This can be wood or metal. But if you can easily move it around, the hammering will move it too. Weight is your friend, not your enemy.

Or you can do what I have done off and on and just bolt the 'table' to the building. I find that to be very stable. My current workbench is built into the supports that hold the roof of my shed up and the back wall of the shed. It doesn't move.
The vise is secured to a big steel tool stand that is really, really heavy. It still moves some, but I can live with it.

You will never get anywhere unless your tools are stable. I have worked that way before, don't set yourself up for that pain.

Wade

[Halberds]

I agree, A secure solid stake holder is the way to go.

For years, I chased my tools all over the bench.
The stakes were held in a drill press vice clamped to the bench.
They slipped around quite a bit.

My tin/lead alloy dish bounced all over the place.
I did not know any better.
However... it gave my work that organic look.

This is what my RR fluting stake evolved into.



Hal

[Mad Matt]

Those aren't exactly flutes. they're not creases either. They're quite a bit taller then flutes as we think of them.

Chisel from behind might not be the way to go. You might be better hammering them into a crease from the inside with something like the pointy end of a brick hammer. In a knee they'd be about 1/2" deep. (was looking at them just recently).

If you've got a cheap machinists vise hammer away. Mine has lasted forever. There's stuff that's better but it's not better if you don't have it.

Attach your vise to something like people have said.

A hatchet will probably work pretty well for these to clean the outside up over.

[Buster]

I use a chisel to set the flute with a tree stump to support it. To bring the flute out I use a crowbar in my vice. It is not terribly difficult to start fluting, just got to want to do it and have the patience for it.

I hadn't thought of that. Do you use a slot in the stump, or just the wood's surface?

[Buster]

Those aren't exactly flutes. they're not creases either. They're quite a bit taller then flutes as we think of them.

Chisel from behind might not be the way to go. You might be better hammering them into a crease from the inside with something like the pointy end of a brick hammer. In a knee they'd be about 1/2" deep. (was looking at them just recently).

If you've got a cheap machinists vise hammer away. Mine has lasted forever. There's stuff that's better but it's not better if you don't have it.

Attach your vise to something like people have said.

A hatchet will probably work pretty well for these to clean the outside up over.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. I just figured fluting woud be easier to pull off than that, and would still look more appropriate than a crease.

[Dafydd MacNab]

Flutes didn't pop up much until the fifteenth anyway, Beastlybabe. The fourteenth seems to favor appliqué borders -- the addition of decorative strips of metal to pretty up the edges of plates.

How is the medial ridge commonly found in 14th century pieces created. I thought it was attained by fluting.

Is there another process to achieve this?

[Konstantin the Red]

We're talking about two different goals here, Dafydd. You've got forming, centerline creasing, and structural strengthening combined with improved glancing surfaces in mind -- achieved with a creasing/fluting stake.

The extensive Maximilian fluting of the 16th century used pretty much the same metalforming technique AFAIK to a rather different end -- style, and a corrugated strengthening with it. Multiple creasing, if you will, and not necessarily set up to deliver the intersection of two slick glancing surfaces to shed lance-irons. "Fluting" is the term oftenest applied to doing it for a surface styling and effect, and "creasing" more for the centerline creases of smooth-surfaced armor pieces.

You're not wrong to think as you did -- just bear in mind the differing ends this technique can produce.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Buster, The best way ive found to reeelly get into fluting is to...

1 Take a deep breath.

2 Play this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjfkYWz6l5E , or crank up some really medieval music, like Iron Maiden or Judas Priest.

3 Put a chair in front of your creasing stake.

4 Print out this page and read it just before you start fluting

5 Use an axe head with a 6 inch handle for starting the the flute from the inside on wood or shotbag. hold the handle and place the axe on the sharpie line, hit it with the hammer. Then use the axe head in a vise as a stake to clean the outside up.

6 Listen for the correct sound when hammering, you want a dull thud, not tink, tink , tink. You get this by holding the piece at the right angle and hammering right where the stake touches the metal off to one side.

7 Take your time and work the flute from both sides till its straight.


Hi Dafydd, a crease is the meeting point of 2 shallow arcs, a flute is sharper and more pronounced, like the top of a wave before it breaks. I think Creases are for deflecting stuff, and looks, flutes are to add strength.

Take care

Andy @ Pitbull Armory

[Pitbull Armory]

Listen to alot of Jethro Tull?