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My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:56 pm
by Zetheros
Hey everyone, I'm working on my third rendition of my fantasy helmet for my armor. The first and second were great for practice, but in the end did not meet my standards (The inner bascinet did not fit properly, and I scarred the visor badly on my anvil).

It's incomplete of course, but here's the pictures I took of it.

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Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:16 pm
by Halberds
Now that is cool.
Be sure to keep us posted.

Hal

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:17 pm
by InsaneIrish
What is this for?
I certainly looks like a cool fantasy piece.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:42 pm
by Zetheros
I'm building a full suit of fantasy armor inspired by gothic and maxamillian plate, it's for my portfolio as a costume designer. Everything will be handmade, so I'll also have experience in glassmaking, tanning/tooling leather, sewing, etc. I'm trying to go for a realistic-fantasy approach, sort of like what the costume designers did in LOTR and more recently, the Game of Thrones. :D

I'm also still young enough to live with my parents (18) so I'm taking this opportunity of free housing, free food, and free tools to put in as much effort into building this costume.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:52 pm
by hivemind
You're tanning your own leather?

Really?

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:57 pm
by Zetheros
I did it before when I was 15, egg tanning. It was really, really, hard when I was finished, and I didn't know that I need manually tap it into a soft material. It was a nice deer hide too, I used it in one of my very early costumes with metal.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:30 am
by Count Johnathan
18 and able to shape metal like that? You are on a good path. Hell of a nice job there. I look forward to seeing your future works!

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:47 am
by Zetheros
Thanks! I'm working on my third helmet and gauntlets at the moment, here's the pictures of my progress so far:

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A wooden positive mold, for making luminescent glass jewels, and the cardboard cutouts for the steel holders. Took two days to get a satisfactory 'glacial ice' texture to it using a dremel.

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Some stuff I made from the past few months. The two unfinished helmets were for practice/fun. The parts in the lower right corner will be my third helmet.

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Future gothic gauntlets.

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I can't believe I forgot to take a picture of the finger designs. The thumb design has maxamillian fluting that go in spirals with fins offshooting.

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Added. The plate in the lower right corner is a wrist plate (made out of three plates and a horn, and the other fingers will be similarly designed to the thumb plates. I'll probably be changing the thumb hinge to something nicer too.

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The third helmet will be based off my first helmet.

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The horn for my third helmet. There will be a glass jewel embedded in the middle.

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My first helmet based off a design that I worked on for three months.

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The design. Much has changed, but this is the original one.

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My workshop :lol: I try to keep it tidy. It looked terrible when I first got it, China isn't well known for cleanliness. And yes, that IS a pink upside-down fan hanging from a wire.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:37 pm
by redrook
Fantastic!!

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:06 am
by Swete
Holy Shamoopaly! You are certainly giving Sauron's armour a run for its money! :D

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:23 pm
by Zetheros
Thanks! Too bad I don't have a felbeast to make armor for. That would be wicked. :)

I might try to buy a stallion in the future though. Once I find a job. Then a house. Then...

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:28 am
by Zetheros
It's been awhile, and I've progressed. Here are a few more shots of my third helmet in the making. So far I've made and hammered out the main plates for my armet visor. I'll be sharpening the creases and making them all fit together in the coming weeks.

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Here's the top (below pic). Dishing a helmet top was far more difficult than I expected since I have this weird lumpy asian head.

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Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:45 pm
by Galvyn Lockhart
You, my friend, have true talent. Pls. make certain to keep updating us w/ progress pics of your work.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:44 pm
by Andrew McKinnon
Bloody hell. That is very cool.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:14 pm
by Zetheros
Galvyn Lockhart wrote:You, my friend, have true talent. Pls. make certain to keep updating us w/ progress pics of your work.


Can do!

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:03 am
by Zetheros
I got the water buffalo hide today.

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Look at that tub o'skin.

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This is me. :D Also, this is a terrible position to clean a hide with. It's tiring, you have zero leverage, and the flies love to get in your ears. I've since moved the hide to a table. Tables are essential for this. And a can of WD-40+bic lighter for the flies.
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I have a question, is the thick white part a layer of fat or hide? While this is my second time tanning a hide, this is my first cow/water buffalo skin to work with.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:15 am
by Wolf
:) very cool

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:27 am
by Swamp Stick
The fat will be obvious. It really will feel fatty and greasy. I've never worked with WB before, but I'd imagine some areas are going to be really thick. You can thin them down now or later. That is provided to want to thin them at all, I don't know how you are going to use it specifically. Are you going to do a full(real) tan or just a raw hide?

Bjorn

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:45 am
by Smilingotter
Stretching it out on a vertical frame also works, but in this case it'd be a pretty tall frame.

Good luck though - I really love the armor and your willingness to tan your own leather.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:04 pm
by Peikko
Smilingotter wrote:Stretching it out on a vertical frame also works, but in this case it'd be a pretty tall frame.

Good luck though - I really love the armor and your willingness to tan your own leather.


^this +1 Get your self a frame...it will save your back and improve the final product.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:36 pm
by Ckanite
WOW!!! all of it is looking fantastic!

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:26 am
by Zetheros
I dragged the cleaned and salted hide up to the roof to dry! Will post results in a few days :D

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:32 am
by Zetheros
Swamp Stick wrote:The fat will be obvious. It really will feel fatty and greasy. I've never worked with WB before, but I'd imagine some areas are going to be really thick. You can thin them down now or later. That is provided to want to thin them at all, I don't know how you are going to use it specifically. Are you going to do a full(real) tan or just a raw hide?

Bjorn


I'll try going for a full tan. I'm pretty sure I made rawhide last time, since it was hard enough to tear through cardboard xD

If I understand correctly, full tanning is basically cleaning, salting, drying (until only slightly damp) then painting a mixture of egg yolks and warm water to the hide? After that, it gets sewn into a bag of sorts and placed over a smokey fire, then coated with oils? I'm pretty sure I missed the coating with oils/stretching the hide over a rack part last time.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:42 pm
by Ironbadger
Really nice looking armor work. :)

Now, as for fleshing hides.

My main job working for my grandfather for two years was fleshing hides.

Here is the method we used in a full time, professional taxidermy shop.

Lay the hide flesh side up.
Cover the hide entirely in mill run grade feed salt.
You can get it in large bags, and its coarser than table salt, but easier to use than rock salt.

Cover the entire hide until you cannot see flesh- a depth of a quarter to half an inch.
As my grandfather put it, you cannot use too much salt- but its very easy to not use enough.

leave it overnight.
the next day, hang it for a while to let the water drain out.
(This procedure assumes a full sized cowhide, but its equally applicable to any large hide from a hooved animal. My grandfather handled and fleshed trophy hair-on hides himself.)

Arrange your hide after it has drained flesh side up.
We used an angled wooden beam for fleshing- the classic one you see in any illustration from a tanner's or taxidermist.
Ours had the point of the beam end at about belt buckle height.

Take a drawknife, and begin fleshing by drawing away from you, scraping the flesh off.
I advise a dull edged one to start- it takes more force as you are essentially tearing or ripping the fat off the hide, but you are less likely to cut holes in the hide itself. (Accidental holing happens a lot in fleshing no matter how experienced you are, once you start to get tired...)
My grandfather had one made from an old, broken parade sword blade with the typical blunt edge of an issue sword.
The flesh will be obvious- it will be a bit shrunken by now, and peels off rather easily.

You can also do plains indian style- peg the hide out flat, and scrap the flesh off with a wooden scraper.


After fleshing, we salted again and then hung the hide to dry completely.
We sent stuff out to a professional tannery, so I can't offer much advice on the actual tanning process; except to say that my grandfather tanned deer scalps for plaque mounts by soaking the hides in a 50/50 mixture of salt and alum in water.

A week in the pickle, as he called it, and the hide was cured.
(It can stay in the pickle almost indefinitely...He had some in the urn that had been there for years.)
Once dried, it would become hard as a rock- but you could rub or work oil or glycerine into the flesh side of it, and it would become soft and pliable.
I have been told motor oil of all things can be used to do the same thing- but have not tried it myself.

The point is that there are literally dozens of ways to tan hides.
Soaking in Oak chips/tannic acid. (Or even a mixture made from tea.)
Urine curing.
Sulphuric acid was the old method for commercial hair-on tanning, and the industry switched to a Chromium based solution. (I do not know the formula.)
The reason was that sulphuric acid tanned hides become brittle after enough time, and begin to disintegrate...In about 20-30 years.
(I had a pile of hides my grandfather gave me that had started to do this...Most of them got tossed in the trash because they tore like paper.)
sad...Had a cougar, some lynx, bear and a nice wolf hide...But they were all falling apart.



Theres brain tanning, simple drying in the sun after fleshing, (Which makes rawhide,) and I'd heard of some other weird methods I can't recall offhand.
Taxidermy supply companies sell home tanning solutions based on citric acid, made from orange peel.

Theres so many ways to tan hides into leather, that all you really need to do is pick whatever works best for you and get the materials needed.

Hope this rather rambling bit of information was helpful.


-Badger-

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:32 am
by Zetheros
Wow, excellent advice. I definitely did not put enough salt (about 2cm thick, both sides) on the hide, but luckily it's sunny nearly every day here, and since southern china is practically on the equator, I hope it dries fast enough. Also, the hide started to smell before I took it up to the roof.
Is that really bad? It smelled like decaying fish since I put on several layers of salt. The skin felt tough though, and didn't come apart when I dragged it into a bin.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:53 am
by Hrolfr
Some nice work.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:29 am
by Ironbadger
It only needs to be salted on the flesh side, actually.
The salt will draw the moisture out and up, which is why it needs to be hung over a beam or other height for the water to drain after a day or so.
If you do not hang it to drain fairly soon, it can still rot in the salt- though it will take several days or a week to do that.

If it smells like actual rot- its starting to go bad.
Understand, a raw but salted hide does smell.
Not sure how to describe it though- more musty than anything else.
(Its also been over 25 years since I worked for my grandfather, so I'm struggling to remember details.)
Keep the hide out of the sun if at all possible- sun and plastic bags together, or even just plastic bags can and will rot a hide beyond recovery in a day.
Never store or transport a fresh hide in a plastic bag.
Use a burlap sack.
The lack of air flow in a plastic bag contributes to decay very fast.

If the hide feels slimy, and stinks really bad- its probably too far gone to tan.

The initial steps of salting and draining should be done in shade if possible.

-Badger-

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:43 am
by Zetheros
Dang, it was a bit slimy and smelled pretty horrible a few hours before I salted it. It was stored in a plastic tub in a really hot car for several hours before arriving to me, so that might have contributed to the decay.

I'll just have to see how it fares after a few days on the roof. It's got an amazing place to dry by the way, it's over this grate that has great airflow, and is also covered by a clear plastic roof in case it rains.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:09 am
by Sam O.
Some of that stuff is seriously cool, in particular, I like the serrated-edge look, like on the gauntlets.

Can't wait to see how it all comes along.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:39 am
by Ironbadger
Then sad to say, its most likely gone.

It might be salvageable, but my grandfather would have told you to throw it away without hesitation.

You can try to tan it, but you will likely wind up with a mess, rather than a useable leather hide.

If you get another chance at a hide, I advise this-

If a plastic tub must be used, try to ice it down with dry ice.
An actual ice chest is the best solution, but the main problem is that a plastic container retains water.
Water of any kind is the enemy of hides or meat- in hot weather, it will cause either to rot beyond recovery in hours.

Dry ice does not leave water residue, and cools a LOT.
Its not a great solution, and the driver MUST drive with the windows down if this trick is used, or the steadily building carbon dioxide inside the car as the dry ice melts, and the CO2 evaporates may suffocate the passengers.

Rule of thumb is, if a hide already smells like rot, its most likely a lost cause.

-Badger-




Zetheros wrote:Dang, it was a bit slimy and smelled pretty horrible a few hours before I salted it. It was stored in a plastic tub in a really hot car for several hours before arriving to me, so that might have contributed to the decay.

I'll just have to see how it fares after a few days on the roof. It's got an amazing place to dry by the way, it's over this grate that has great airflow, and is also covered by a clear plastic roof in case it rains.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:57 pm
by RenJunkie
Man, there just ain't words for it.... :shock:

Thanks!
Christopher

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:55 am
by Zetheros
So I went up to the roof today with a pitcher of egg yolk and water, and the hide smelled more animal-y and less like a sewer than when I first lugged it up there. In fact, it actually smells kinda tasty...om nom nom. :D

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I don't think I've made enough egg mix, but I can always add more I guess.

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Now it smells like salty, sun-dried jerky with roasted peanut oil. I should probably use a different oil, but I didn't want the hide to crack before I get it.

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A horizon pic of an average chinese suburb.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:06 am
by Swamp Stick
Badger really covered it well, I can't add much. Go to the Primitive archer site and especially the Paleoplanet site, they have all sorts of info on hand tanning both traditional and modern. My biggest concern for you is if you want a soft hide, you are going to have a really hard time "breaking" a hide that is that thick and large by hand. You may have to get inventive. I'm curious how all this turns out, please keep us updated how you fare.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:19 pm
by Zetheros
Yeah, I was just about to head to the roof when I thought how ridiculous softening the hide by hand would be. I'm thinking about sprinkling it with water for a few minutes and move it around while it's drying.

Edit: Alright, new plan. After slipping and falling directly on the hide with water on it, and having residual oily brine liquid splashed in my mouth and eyes, I think I'll just need to do a better job of tanning before softening.

I heard that mixing soap and oil can be used instead of brains and eggs, so I'm going to make a large solution of that and soak the hide for awhile. I hope I don't slip this time around.

Edit 2: After doing more research, I'm beginning to think that the hide has been turned into boiled leather, from pouring water on it while on the hot concrete roof. I've also realized I should have vegetable tanned the hide, seeing as I wanted to stamp designs into it afterwards. Maybe I should just buy some pre-made leather. :?

Edit 3: So now that I found out I'm not really that good at tanning, I suppose the next best thing to do with the oddity that I have created is to cut it up into scales and make a boiled leather scale drapes for the cloak and the kilt.

Re: My Second Version of a Helmet

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:48 am
by RoaK
Too bad it wasn't a pig... you might have made bacon. :D

The armor is bad assed by the way.