The Armour Archive

wcallen wrote:My wife says my copy is sitting at home.

Mine is on its way from the UK now.

It must be on a slow boat, estimated delivery is 4/16.
I am flying back to China that week for a 3 week business trip.
I better get it before I leave.


Tom

I tried to order, and it said declined. I tried a second time, and then got a different error message (something about card number). Oddly, I received two emails afterwards thanking me for my order. I've emailed them for help, since they're in the UK. Hopefully I'm getting a copy soon ... and hopefully I didn't order two copies. I was back and forth based on the high price (well beyond my normal book threshold), but Mr Allen's review of it, and screen shots, sealed it for me.

I had the stick with me this weekend and Mac, Dave and I played with it a little bit. We got off into the weeds pretty quickly - because of the images available.

We were talking about how the upper cannons of the arms on A-21 might actually work, whether they have been reworked, whether they are upside down, etc.

We were talking about parts of the Augsburg armours - how one gorget is just wrong, and how the shape of the gorget matches up with the shape of the top of the breastplate.

We were talking about how the cuisses are assembled on the Greenwich armour and why it seems to move in places it doesn't need to (no idea on that one). We then went on to discussing how some of the lames on the arms don't seem "right" and what might have caused that.

We played with other parts of A-21 - you can see all sorts of entertaining things on it like how the greaves and sollerets don't fit the way they would have originally. And how the breastplate is put together, and how the backplate would have moved, and how many changes have happened to the salade.

It is nice to see what can happen when you can see the bits and pieces of armours that are normally seen assembled.

They also got a feel for how the application works that displays the images.

Wade

You're a rat bastard telling us all of that, Wade.

Enrico di Venezia wrote:Mine is on its way from the UK now.

It must be on a slow boat, estimated delivery is 4/16.
I am flying back to China that week for a 3 week business trip.
I better get it before I leave.


Tom

It is here!!

Wow they missed their estimate in a good way!
The viewing app is installing now as we speak.


Tom

I assume by "installing" you mean "running" - at least for Windows the readme tells you that the app will only run from the stick directly. I haven't tried to copy it, I am being a good boy and following the rules as stated.

Wade

wcallen wrote:I assume by "installing" you mean "running" - at least for Windows the readme tells you that the app will only run from the stick directly. I haven't tried to copy it, I am being a good boy and following the rules as stated.

Wade

I guess your right.
I think when I plugged it in Windows probably said installing hardware.

Tom

wcallen wrote: We were talking about how the upper cannons of the arms on A-21 might actually work, whether they have been reworked, whether they are upside down, etc.

These were great to see by themselves.
The little hooks to catch the pauldron straps were interesting.

We played with other parts of A-21 - you can see all sorts of entertaining things on it like how the greaves and sollerets don't fit the way they would have originally. And how the breastplate is put together, and how the backplate would have moved, and how many changes have happened to the salade.

I was surprised to read in Mann's 1986 supplement that he though the sallet had at one point had the bevor attached.
I take this to me a configuration like the one at the MET as shown in this post by James Arlen Gillaspie.

It also is great to get the weights of each piece down to the 0.01 kg level.

Tom

Enrico di Venezia wrote:

wcallen wrote: We were talking about how the upper cannons of the arms on A-21 might actually work, whether they have been reworked, whether they are upside down, etc.

These were great to see by themselves.
The little hooks to catch the pauldron straps were interesting.

We played with other parts of A-21 - you can see all sorts of entertaining things on it like how the greaves and sollerets don't fit the way they would have originally. And how the breastplate is put together, and how the backplate would have moved, and how many changes have happened to the salade.

I was surprised to read in Mann's 1986 supplement that he though the sallet had at one point had the bevor attached.
I take this to me a configuration like the one at the MET as shown in this post by James Arlen Gillaspie.

It also is great to get the weights of each piece down to the 0.01 kg level.

Tom

Be careful - read the descriptions. For example, the hooks to hold the pauldron straps? They are later additions. Not part of the actual pieces when they were used.

That salade has gone through a lot of abuse/care/adaptation over time. The slots might be from an attached bevor. There isn't any other good explanation for them. The brass is a later mess. So is the recessed area the brass sits in. There are all sorts of holes in strange places. I think I remember that it appears the face hole has changed shape. The arms of the visor are modern, most likely to get the visor to fit this helmet. The lining holes are .... weird. I am sure there are other things to see if I actually had the images in front of me at the moment.

Wade

wcallen wrote: Be careful - read the descriptions. For example, the hooks to hold the pauldron straps? They are later additions. Not part of the actual pieces when they were used.

Yeah, duly noted. I have just started looking through this today.
The interface is a bit quirky.
The text is difficult to read through and you must make sure to read the latest text & the supplemental data at the bottom to get the latest opinions.

Tom

I got my issue straightened out. The cardholder froze my card since it was an overseas transaction. There's still a glitch where it sends the confirmation email when payment fails, but I contacted them and they confirmed everything went through after I spoke with the cardholder. Also, they even arranged to get it signed by Mr Capwell and Mr Edge too. Can't wait for it to get here!

I have a question about the armor on the cover (A30).

There are two rivets near the temple on the visor, are there two rivets on each side of the visor, or just the R side? What is their purpose?

just wanted to ask a question since I have never seen any of these books close up. Its ultra high resolution pictures of historical artifacts? As for the actual break down or design of the armor, when people craft patterns based off of these types of books - are they crafted by imagination of how they believe best represents the pattern shown, or is there more detailed information on the actual construction of the peaces?

Thank you!
-PS sorry to ask such a dumb question, just wanted to know cause I might pickup a few thnx

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:I have a question about the armor on the cover (A30).

There are two rivets near the temple on the visor, are there two rivets on each side of the visor, or just the R side? What is their purpose?

Those two rivets hold part of the pivot assembly.
See your PM's.

Tom

So the solitary rivet is a false/decorative rivet?

Thanks for the pic!

KeggeR wrote:just wanted to ask a question since I have never seen any of these books close up. Its ultra high resolution pictures of historical artifacts? As for the actual break down or design of the armor, when people craft patterns based off of these types of books - are they crafted by imagination of how they believe best represents the pattern shown, or is there more detailed information on the actual construction of the peaces?

Thank you!
-PS sorry to ask such a dumb question, just wanted to know cause I might pickup a few thnx

Not very many people get the opportunity to go into a museum with micrometers and tape measures to completely map the armor for pattern making. So they go with their experience, eye, and imagination.

KeggeR wrote:just wanted to ask a question since I have never seen any of these books close up. Its ultra high resolution pictures of historical artifacts? As for the actual break down or design of the armor, when people craft patterns based off of these types of books - are they crafted by imagination of how they believe best represents the pattern shown, or is there more detailed information on the actual construction of the peaces?

Thank you!
-PS sorry to ask such a dumb question, just wanted to know cause I might pickup a few thnx

This memory stick contains high resolution (I wouldn't say ultra-high, I am greedy) pictures of all of the pieces of European armour and arms in the Wallace collection. They identify the date of manufacture. Most people would call all of them "historical artifacts", but there are pieces that were made in the 19th and 20th c. to complete older pieces.

As to how you build armour - you stare at everything you can see. Mostly this is pictures in books or on the internet. Then you apply your knowledge of how metal moves and how those shapes would have to work to fit on the human body and move and you make a pattern. The pattern for a single piece like an elbow or a breastplate will be very different depending on how you plan to move the metal. Even to create exactly the same final form. The pattern for the same piece will be different to fit a differently shaped person too.

None of these high end books will actually tell you how to build armour. They will show you what armour looks like.

In this case, it will show you what each of the individual parts of the armour look like from several angles. This can be vital - otherwise you have to guess what the parts underneath other ones look like and have to guess about the back.

Wade

P.S. Yes, very few museums will let you take gauges and tape measures to play with their armour. In fact, they usually won't take them out of the cases.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:So the solitary rivet is a false/decorative rivet?

That does appear to be the case.

Tom

Thanks for answers guys, anyone have a link to purchase this book? I wouldn't mind getting one to check out, I would like to give a shot at armoring but starting clean with my own patterns. Thank you!

http://www.wallacecollection.org/shop/b ... -catalogue

I just ordered from the Wallace bookshop directly. A very nice man helped me get just what I wanted.

I did cheat and buy the "book only" one from Amazon. Yes, I have 2 copies of the book, but I can't swing a spare copy of the digital one.

Wade

wcallen wrote:http://www.wallacecollection.org/shop/b ... -catalogue

I just ordered from the Wallace bookshop directly. A very nice man helped me get just what I wanted.

I did cheat and buy the "book only" one from Amazon. Yes, I have 2 copies of the book, but I can't swing a spare copy of the digital one.

Wade

Sweet thanks for the link, kinda pricy for an impulse purchase so i'm going to have to wait a bit. But I put it on my wish list!! I would love to see just one picture from the digital version to get an idea of the image quality. Thanks!

Scroll up. I posted some earlier. From memory, only one was really zoomed all the way in.

The main thing you get isn't crazy resolution, it is actual images from multiple angles of all of the pieces. Something you will never get again, and never be able to do yourself.

Wade

wcallen wrote:Scroll up. I posted some earlier. From memory, only one was really zoomed all the way in.

The main thing you get isn't crazy resolution, it is actual images from multiple angles of all of the pieces. Something you will never get again, and never be able to do yourself.

Wade

I just saw them thanks! I noticed that they took pictures over every angle, it looks amazing

Enrico di Venezia wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:So the solitary rivet is a false/decorative rivet?

That does appear to be the case.

Tom

Tom,

By the third rivet, do you mean the one directly over the pivot? While it is currently a decorative rivet, that hole probably onece held a pin to attach a reenforcing visor.

Mac

My thought was that it was the intial pivot point for the visor, and after the hinge was put in, it was plugged. You've got a lot more experience than I, so my guess was worth what I paid for it.

The arm lower down, is that to hold the visor open to get a bit more air in?

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:My thought was that it was the intial pivot point for the visor, and after the hinge was put in, it was plugged.

That's good thought, and it would work if you used that hole to allign the hole on the hinge which will become the concealed pivot. My conclusion is based on the KD armor, which is contemporary and also made by Koloman. It has pegs in those locations.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:The arm lower down, is that to hold the visor open to get a bit more air in?

I don't know what to make of that thing. I have worried about it, on and off, for about 25 years. As it stands, it does not seem very useful. Perhaps there is something missing from the mechanism, or perhaps it is a misguided replacement.

Mac

Mac wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:The arm lower down, is that to hold the visor open to get a bit more air in?

I don't know what to make of that thing. I have worried about it, on and off, for about 25 years. As it stands, it does not seem very useful. Perhaps there is something missing from the mechanism, or perhaps it is a misguided replacement.

Mac

This is where the thumb drive again proves useful.
It appears that the good Baron is correct.
When the visor is opened this piece swings into a rectangular opening at the top of the cheek plate, holding the visor up.

Tom

Mac wrote:

Enrico di Venezia wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:So the solitary rivet is a false/decorative rivet?

That does appear to be the case.

Tom

Tom,

By the third rivet, do you mean the one directly over the pivot? While it is currently a decorative rivet, that hole probably onece held a pin to attach a reenforcing visor.

Mac

Yes, that is the rivet we are talking about.
Interesting I will have to take another look at the KD armour.

Tom

Mac wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:My thought was that it was the intial pivot point for the visor, and after the hinge was put in, it was plugged.

That's good thought, and it would work if you used that hole to allign the hole on the hinge which will become the concealed pivot. My conclusion is based on the KD armor, which is contemporary and also made by Koloman. It has pegs in those locations.

Coincidentally there is currently this thread over on the AAF with some pictures of the KD armour.
The lighting is horrible but you can see the peg Mac mentioned.

Tom

Enrico di Venezia wrote:

Mac wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:The arm lower down, is that to hold the visor open to get a bit more air in?

I don't know what to make of that thing. I have worried about it, on and off, for about 25 years. As it stands, it does not seem very useful. Perhaps there is something missing from the mechanism, or perhaps it is a misguided replacement.

Mac

This is where the thumb drive again proves useful.
It appears that the good Baron is correct.
When the visor is opened this piece swings into a rectangular opening at the top of the cheek plate, holding the visor up.

Tom

You don't even need the thumb drive to see this, take a look at this page at the Wallace Collection website.

Tom

Well dang!

I am pleased to see that!



Mac

That opens it up far further than I expected. Why I didn't expect the guy to want to see AND breathe...

Ordered from the book depository, free shipping is a win...(:

So, for those that have had this for a while -

What's your opinion of it now it might have lost its 'new toy' lustre?

If I were to buy this, and my primary interest was armour from 1390-1520, how much is there to look at?

It is still the "go to" thing when I want to look up something that they have. Their actual holdings 1390-1520 are pretty limited, but so are everyone else's. If you want several angles on the hourglass gauntlets, you will get them here. If you want detailed images of each piece of A21, you will get it. If you want detailed pictures of each piece of their partially 15th c. standing suit, you will get that. The same for their Maximilian stuff. After that the collection moves into later stuff.

I tend to target my study based on what I am working on or what I am buying at the time so I use it when I have a reason. I just used it to look up the chanfron on A-21.

Basically if you wish you could get inside the cases at the Wallace, buy it. If the contents of their collection isn't that interesting to you... then don't.

I was pushing people to buy it this weekend. I still think it is a "must have."

Wade

I still look at it multiple times a week.
Over the weekend at Hammerfest, I showed a few people some examples from the thumb drive.
With just that quick demo most of them said that it was now on their must buy list.

Tom