The Armour Archive

One of my students wants to make a set of pauldrons like the ones on the Wallace A21 suit to go with his kit. Does anyone have a pattern they are willing to share or hints to send me in the right direction? This will be the first time I have attempted to make such a complex shoulder defense let alone tried to teach someone how. I've looked at the Eric Dube video on similar pauldrons. How hard can it be.

The Wallace website wasn't much help. I did find a nice PDF DL at http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.p ... load/88/89 Lots of good detail there. Pic of the suit standing before resto in the Fifties. It is a composite suit of an estimated 5 sets of armour. The article suggests the pauldrons were modern (19th cent). Some neat metalurgy data at the end.

A thread on MyArmoury had a couple pics of the front and back. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... highlight= Fifth set down.

I have yet to dig through my books at home but I suspect I will find the same basic pic of the suit mounted on the horse brandishing a sword.

First - and you may not care - I think they are 100% fake. They are pretty good fakes, but they are fake. I can verify that tonight.

Second - there are pictures of them in the digital catalogue the Wallace just produced. I might have mentioned that I think people should buy it.

I have the stick in my house, Tom has one too. I am sure we could look it over.

I haven't made those, but I have made Italian ones and I own 16th c. ones. We could have a pow-wow next week if people decide it is worth the time.

Other than the flutes they aren't terribly complex. There is plenty of room for the wrong pattern messing things up royally.

Wade

wcallen wrote:First - and you may not care - I think they are 100% fake. They are pretty good fakes, but they are fake. I can verify that tonight.

Second - there are pictures of them in the digital catalogue the Wallace just produced. I might have mentioned that I think people should buy it.

I have the stick in my house, Tom has one too. I am sure we could look it over.

I haven't made those, but I have made Italian ones and I own 16th c. ones. We could have a pow-wow next week if people decide it is worth the time.

Other than the flutes they aren't terribly complex. There is plenty of room for the wrong pattern messing things up royally.

Wade

Hi Wade, I appreciate the insight. I do not think Iain cares that they are fake. I care only in that I want him to have gear that actually works, at least based on period looks, and not just made to look good on an armature. I am hoping to pick everyones brain at the get together. I'd love to look inside a few to see how the working parts interact. The biggest issue is the lack of a proven pattern. All mine are for much smaller spaulders that hug the shoulder.

I'm hoping to talk him out of the flutes. Mostly for times sake. His current set are not up to the beating they are getting. I've suggested he block more...

I look forward to seeing the Digital Catalouge images. It's on my Christmas list.

If I fished in the bin I do have patterns for the 2 pair of Italian pauldrons I built. And I have some 16th pauldrons that are built in a similar fashion to the late 15th c. German ones. Fewer plates, but the idea is similar.

Wander around and see what seems helpful next weekend.

Wade

wcallen wrote:If I fished in the bin I do have patterns for the 2 pair of Italian pauldrons I built. And I have some 16th pauldrons that are built in a similar fashion to the late 15th c. German ones. Fewer plates, but the idea is similar.

Wander around and see what seems helpful next weekend.

Wade

Thanks! I am really looking forward to it. It is a great thing you do by hosting it. I have learned a bunch from them and have a bunch more to learn! Having people in my shop asking me how to make things I haven't yet made will do that!

Wade,

Are they fakes? I had heard something along these lines before but never taken much time to investigate. I am interested if you have more info on it.

RPM

RandallMoffett wrote:Wade,

Are they fakes? I had heard something along these lines before but never taken much time to investigate. I am interested if you have more info on it.

RPM

Well,from memory, they looked fake when we were re-assembling the suit on the new armature (oh what a lucky day - I just happened to wander in that day).

And the Wallace catalogues have listed them as fake for a while....

That is usually good enough.

This is what the newest catalogue says about the left:



Wade

Bummer it is a fake. I wonder if the other one is as well? Is the righ one listed. I would assume if not it is a fake as well.

Thanks Wade,

RPM

It is listed as a fake. Getting images out of the digital catalogue is a bit of an annoyance, so I just pulled one.

From the 1965 catalogue -
"The restorations to the man's armour comprise both pauldrons, one couter, both gauntlets and tassets."
It gets worse when you start talking with the staff. Latest thoughts indicate that the helmet has been heavily re-worked at least once (but the bowl does have an interesting shape), the sabatons have been re-cut to fit (wrong), and the breastplate might be re-cut from 16th c. breastplates.

The one real couter, the backplate, the greaves and (except for the nasty brass) cuisses are very nice.

Now... Is it way better than a lot of stuff out there? Sure. But it isn't anything comparable to the harnesses in Vienna.

Wade

Johann-- Tom will bring patterns next Saturday for a 15th c Italian pauldron that you can use as a basis for generating a pattern. Bring posterboard if you'd like to trace it.


Tracy

Tracy Justus wrote:Johann-- Tom will bring patterns next Saturday for a 15th c Italian pauldron that you can use as a basis for generating a pattern. Bring posterboard if you'd like to trace it.


Tracy

Thanks Tracy! I appreciate the help. This piece is much more 3D that I am used to patterning, especially with articulation. I can use all the hints I can get. Looking forward to seeing you and Tom. I don't get to see you all enough.

In the mean time.

Does the prospective wearer already have his/her cuirass built? A pauldron really should be fitted to the person while wearing the cuirass. Build the pauldrons first and they have a really good chance of being wrong.

We can see how Tom's patterns differ from mine. That should be entertaining. I have my finished pair of Italian pauldrons and my (rusty) unfinished other pair lying around so it would be possible to look at the pattern and finished (or semi-finished) pieces.

Remember, an Italian 15th c. Pauldron is built differently from a German one... at least when you are talking about the "typical" form we see in Vienna for German and Churburg for Italian.

Wade

I can bring my 15th C. Italian Pauldrons down as well as a comparison point.

Vermillion wrote:I can bring my 15th C. Italian Pauldrons down as well as a comparison point.

More toys to play with. Cool. I always like seeing other people's work.

We can't play with our other toys during the main study session, but any other time is fair game.

Wade

wcallen wrote:In the mean time.

Does the prospective wearer already have his/her cuirass built? A pauldron really should be fitted to the person while wearing the cuirass. Build the pauldrons first and they have a really good chance of being wrong.

We can see how Tom's patterns differ from mine. That should be entertaining. I have my finished pair of Italian pauldrons and my (rusty) unfinished other pair lying around so it would be possible to look at the pattern and finished (or semi-finished) pieces.

Remember, an Italian 15th c. Pauldron is built differently from a German one... at least when you are talking about the "typical" form we see in Vienna for German and Churburg for Italian.

Wade

He has a cuirass but it is not likely his final one and only the front. Its a Ukrainian two part that is denting faster than he'd like. I think they sanded the crap out of it to make it "pretty". Looks like it has been pistol proof tested a few times.

What he does not have is a good metal gorget to hang the pauldrons from. He is using a brig gorget to cover the traditional problems areas on a Sallet (sides of the neck behind the bevor). He has made a leather collar to hang his arms from but it will likely be a stopgap for the appropriate period solution.

It will be very interesting to compare the patterns and Vermillions pauldrons as well. Tis shaping up to be a good learning experience! I do hope to create a list of details that we should include on these to make them "German".

Thanks all!

John,

We definitely need to have a good discussion then ! I'm in the same boat with the gorget, and one of my priorities of this weekend was to work with Wade to find an appropriate design to make this summer, while I'm out of fighting for medical reasons. Maybe we can cooperate on that.

I'll bring my Rough from the Forge stainless Breast & Back as well. It took some work to finish, but well worth it IMO. The only problem with it, is that it doesn't exactly fit my body type. But I can't blame Dave for that since I have a freakishly long torso for my size.

I don't know yet when Vermillion is showing up. It might be Friday late, or Saturday early. Either way we will need to talk about this stuff either Saturday evening/night or Sunday. Either is fine with me, we just need to make sure we plan things so that everyone who wants to get in on the action is there at the right time.

I guess I should go fishing for my patterns and make sure I can assemble both pairs of pauldrons I have. I am not saying they are right, but you can see what the pattern produced.

Wade

I don't know yet when Vermillion is showing up.

To be honest, I don't yet either. I'm working on it. It all comes down to a 1 hour window that I have to find child care for my son. Sorry for the trouble.

Vermillion wrote:

I don't know yet when Vermillion is showing up.

To be honest, I don't yet either. I'm working on it. It all comes down to a 1 hour window that I have to find child care for my son. Sorry for the trouble.

No big deal for me. I can go either way. When you know tell me so I know what I am doing.

Wade

Whats really an eye opener, is that 100 years ago, this was considered to be one of the finest ( nearly homogenous) Gothic Armours in existance. LOL..

Hi Wade,

for the benefit of those who are not able to make it to the study session (such as those overseas, like me), would it be possible to take some pictures of your pauldrons and patterns to post? I have a pattern for some pauldrons, that I did myself. However, I was only guesstimating at what the shape would be. I have not yet made a prototype from it as I'm so unsure as to how it will turn out.

Having another example to compare mine to might shed some light on how my pattern would turn out.

Pretty please?

Dave

Aussie Yeoman wrote:Hi Wade,

for the benefit of those who are not able to make it to the study session (such as those overseas, like me), would it be possible to take some pictures of your pauldrons and patterns to post? I have a pattern for some pauldrons, that I did myself. However, I was only guesstimating at what the shape would be. I have not yet made a prototype from it as I'm so unsure as to how it will turn out.

Having another example to compare mine to might shed some light on how my pattern would turn out.

Pretty please?

Dave

Well, we will see what we can do.
Anything would be a "study" of copies - not something you really want to try to emulate, but at least it can show you what not to do.

Usually these things degenerate and we don't end up with lots of time to be organized about things, but we can hope.

Wade

That's all I was hoping for. To be able to see a pattern and the finished piece will help to visualise how another pattern *might* turn out. I wouldn't really seek to copy the pattern, and it would just be a study, as you say.

Hopefuly you'll get a couple of minutes to take a snap or two.

Dave

FYI - I did a quick wander through my patterns. At the moment it appears I can find the patterns for one pair (the big, angel-winged ones I never finished) and some of the patterns for the other pair (earlier ones more like the Avant armour), but I seem to be missing the top 2 plates for the moment. I have the actual pauldrons... but the patterns seem to have wandered. They may be in the bottom of the box somewhere.

Wade

Still seems fine to me. In terms of my pattern I only did the biggest plate - with a mind to patterning the other plates off that one when it was made to shape. I thought it would all fit better that way.

I'd be interested to see any pauldron patterns you could take a snap of. Especially if there's a bit of shaped steel to compare it to.

In fact, the photos don't have to be done in your study session...seeing as the patterns and armour are in your house/workshop. Whenever you get to them really.

Dave

Aussie Yeoman wrote:Still seems fine to me. In terms of my pattern I only did the biggest plate - with a mind to patterning the other plates off that one when it was made to shape. I thought it would all fit better that way.

I'd be interested to see any pauldron patterns you could take a snap of. Especially if there's a bit of shaped steel to compare it to.

In fact, the photos don't have to be done in your study session...seeing as the patterns and armour are in your house/workshop. Whenever you get to them really.

Dave

But it would be so much more fun to have 4 sets of patterns (or partial) - 2 from me, 1 from Tom and one from Vermillion with assembled or semi-assembled versions of 3 of them...

We will see how it goes.

Wade

Oh, but how we will see!

Aussie Yeoman wrote:Oh, but how we will see!

Telepathy.

Or pictures we got around to taking. Whichever works out better

We will see what we can do.

Wade

wcallen wrote:
But it would be so much more fun to have 4 sets of patterns (or partial) - 2 from me, 1 from Tom and one from Vermillion with assembled or semi-assembled versions of 3 of them...

We will see how it goes.

Wade

Hi guys, I'm out of town on Museum business and this thread took off! I look forward to comparing what ends up there. I really appreciate the effort you all are making to get pauldrons/patterns together on such short notice.

I plan to head to Wades Saturday morning and staying as long as I can. I may be going to DC to see my mom on Sunday for Mothers Day after all. She fell and is in the hospital. Serious, complicated stuff. My plans are fluid as I have yet to actually receive the green light to go up.

Thanks all!