Early 15th Century Armets and Close Helms from Fiore

[Craig Nadler]

I'm looking to build an interpretive early 15th century Italian close helm or armet. Fior di Battaglia by Fiore de'i Liberi written in 1410 has a few good depictions of armets and maybe close helms. I'm looking for opinions and information on other sources in art.


Armet or Close Helmet? What Do you think?


Looks like an Armet to me. What Do you think?


Looks like a close helm to me. What Do you think? Are there any other close helms from around 1410?


Armet or Close Helmet? What Do you think?


Armet or Close Helmet? What Do you think?

Fior di Battaglia ("The Flower of Battle", MS Ludwig XV 13) is an Italian fencing manual authored by Fiore de'i Liberi
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fior_di_Batt ... g_XV_13%29


Best Regards,

Craig Nadler

[Johann ColdIron]

Close helmets I would associate with integrated neck lames and Armets I would expect to lock around a separate gorget.

Helms 3&4 look like close helmets to me with the way the neck armour is drawn. 1,2 and possibly 5 look like Armets but the details are so limited that it could go either way.

[InsaneIrish]

I've always thought armets had hinged cheek plates, while Close helms had double visors.

[Craig Nadler]

The key issue here is that there doesn't seem to be any other examples of early 15th century close helms in art or surviving helmets. Picture number 3 looks like a clear example of a close helm to me.

Does anyone know of other early 15th century close helms shown in period art?

Best Regards,

Craig Nadler

[wcallen]

I've always thought armets had hinged cheek plates, while Close helms had double visors.

I think that the distinction is a modern one used by collectors and scholars and wouldn't hold up if we were trying to read inventories, but yes, that is how we usually differentiate the two. Though I would say that "the chin area on an armet is covered by plates that are hinged at the sides and open up in the center of the chin and the chin area of a close helmet is covered by a single piece that is pivoted at the sides - generally at the same point as the visor.

I haven't seen any close helmets (using this definition) this early, but there are some pretty close fitted great bascinets that could be confused into this discussion.

I think that the only surviving similar helmets are constructed like armets.

Wade

[Konstantin the Red]

I've always thought armets had hinged cheek plates, while Close helms had double visors.

I think that the distinction is a modern one used by collectors and scholars and wouldn't hold up if we were trying to read inventories, but yes, that is how we usually differentiate the two.

This.

I have the impression that those documents written in English of the time say "close helmet" far more often than "armet," and seldom make any effort to separate close-helmets into two subtypes anyway. Is this correct? Either type would work well with any plate gorget, rigged to have an armet close on its uppermost lame or not.

[Craig Nadler]

Would people think that a reasonable interpretation of drawning number 3 is that it is a close helm with the chin plate pivoting on the side with the visor?

[Craig Nadler]

I'm looking for more opitions on the following drawing. It is from page 38v of Fior di Battaglia by Fiore de'i Liberi written around 1410. Would an early close helm based on this drawing be a reasonable interpretive reproduction or not?



Best Regards,

Craig Nadler

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Craig,

Just my 2 cents. I´m not sure. I have personally not seen a close helmet this early, either extant or in drawing/paintings before this. The split, that is how I interpret the line at the front of the throat and upper chest, of the helmet and maile aventail might indicate a armet. Why do you prefer the close helmet style over the armet?

Cheers,

Jan

[Craig Nadler]

I think that a close helm is safer for Battle of the Nations combat. With an armet there are issues with supporting the cheek plates so that they don't get pushed into the jaw of the wearer. I think that I could deal with the armet cheek plates issues, but in general I think that the close helm would be a better helmet for BotN.

Best Regards,

Craig Nadler

[Gustovic]

Wat's the difference between a close helm and an early armet? I thought they were the same...
http://www.matuls.pl/index.php?IDP=1&Ln ... tegoria=19

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Craig,

Time and style wise that drawing reminds me of the helmet I attached two pictures of below. It is a german armet and the shaping of the cheeks would, I suspect, result in a secure connection. A bit more difficult to realize though then a 1450 italian armet.

Cheers,

Jan

[Craig Nadler]

I really like the visor on that helm, but not the neck.

[Mac]

I really like the visor on that helm, but not the neck.

I really like the neck, but not the visor.

Mac

[Craig Nadler]

I think that the field of view on that visor would be great. The neck seems like it would really limit your range of motion.

[MJBlazek]

If you are worried abotu the chin on an armet, why not just make a wrapper for it?

[Craig Nadler]

The person that it is being made for wants a very large range of neck and head motion. I think that a wrapper would be too limiting for him.

[Craig Nadler]

I think that for now my plan is going back to an armet, instead of a close helm.

Best Regards,

Craig Nadler