The Armour Archive

Everyone says pain is a great teacher.
Well, screw'em!
I'm sick of butt wraps and thigh wraps and back wraps... GAH! I hate loner armour! I can't wait to get mine done!
I have a breast and back plate, so that will eliminate the back problems, but what are some good ways for a 14th-15th century (I plan on narrowing down the date as I get more money to replace period pieces, and as I gain more knowledge on period gear) German to protect the backs of his thighs and arms?
I just want to take the sting of it off, because by the time I can drop to my knees after one of those things, I'd be so shaken that I'm dead from exposing myself.

Love,
The Wuss

Jake:

You need an articulated fauld and tassets. A set of cuisses that have a 3/4 wrap-around wouldn't hurt, either. Something between you and the blow is what will serve you best, and most of what I've seen for the period and place you reference is either articulated (i. e., Milanese influenced) or mail.



------------------
Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Jake:

A quick fix until you get your kit - take a moving pad and make a skirt. Double it if nec.

BEDLAM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bedlam:
<B>Jake:

A quick fix until you get your kit - take a moving pad and make a skirt. Double it if nec.

BEDLAM</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point, Bedlam!



------------------
Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Block better.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Ok well my suggestions are more 14th but here goes.

A ciurboullie scale skirt. You can make this yourself for very little money. Especially if there's a leather store near you that's got a scrap bin you can dig through.

Splinted cuisses that wrap around 3/4 or more.

A maille skirt. Or a whole hauberk underneath.

Believe it or not this does help.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Maybe I'm sick, but I kinda like the next day after fighting when I'm still discovering bruises in weird places. The other night, I spent most of my evening fighting against a flourentine fighter. . .definitely learned a lot of better ways to take on those guys, but got bruises in places I'm not used to. (sword arm shoulder, forearm, ribs, etc.)

Muscle memory works both ways for me. I get it from throwing proper shots, and from recieving them! hehe. I'm still no where near being a good fighter, but I'll tell ya Jake - my bruises have gotten smaller and less frequent as I've gotten better. For me, more armour would have hindered the raise in skill I think.

The day I don't "know" that I fought yesterday, takes away some of the warrior in me somehow. As I get better, and hopefully harder to hit, the more respect and honor I will give to those thowing that great, surprising shot! I'd like to think that Knights get surprised every once in a while and left with a "little something" to remember the bout by. Even better, will be when that surprise can come from the end of MY sword! Until then, I learn from everyone I fight - whether it's my equal and we spin and throw and tire after minutes of a stalemate - or the (many) fighters that could one-shot me if they wished. Both bring a smile to my face.

Sorry if I got a bit off topic, just my theory on fighting and bruising and how it's affected my training and progression.

Oh, and I have it from a decent source that girls like a good old fasioned butt bruise that you can show later while telling stories. Of course, every fighter in the room point and cringe and then try to take credit for it. Consider yourself lucky if noone has a marker on them to sign it with. haha.

Hobbs

Kill 'em quicker?

Run?

Use archers more effectively?

Crossbow?

Get a better shield?

Get an M1Aafkajeaac325fnaklevoae........
***Galileo is temproarily unavailable. Watch for further posts after the silly stick is surgically removed from his head.***

[This message has been edited by Galileo (edited 03-09-2001).]

HEHE...


its sometimes good being lefthanded. those shots are the FIRST thing lefties learn and the last ones they forget.

Sir Sammy is right (again ).

Also, please do not get stuck in the newbie armor-a-thon. Yes, in full plate you'll not feel much at all, but it would be so much easier to learn to block.

Next time at fighter practice ask someone you respect to work with you on blocking the wrap shots, spend the whole day doing it and I can promise you that you won't see another one for a long while (until you forget to block 'em again).

I definitely am in favor of tassets and wrap plates. these will save your legs and butt from alot of vascular damage.

I would also find someone who is good that you can trust. spend time working at those shots you have trouble seeing/blocking. if he is hitting you and leaving bruises then this is not someone you can trust. explain your problem areas and ask for help.

fighting full out and expecting to learn while getting the crap beat out of you is a slow and painful way to learn. if you keep on your current path for a long enough time... you will flinch every time you get hit from muscle memory or you will learn to ignore most painful shots and have difficulty calling ligher blows.


------------------
mrks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake Stallion:
<B>Everyone says pain is a great teacher.
Well, screw'em!
I'm sick of butt wraps and thigh wraps and back wraps... GAH! I hate loner armour! I can't wait to get mine done!
-- snip --
Love,
The Wuss</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I don't think pain is a good teacher. Pain is a lousy teacher. Pain can be a good reinforcer. Case in point :

Trainer: You stance is too closed. Your open for an easy wrap.
Student: I don't think so.
Trainer: --WRAP!!--
Student: YOWITCH!!!!
Trainer: I think you were too closed and open for an easy wrap.
Student: I think you were right.

I am all in favor in pain being used a a negative reinforcement technique, but pain in and of itself teaches very slowly.

Anyway, my 2 cents on pain.

Jake, you need to get with an experienced trainer and have him show you the basic footwork moves of escaping a wrap.



------------------
Jean Paul de Sens (JP)

And Shepherds we shall be
for thee my lord for thee
power hath descended forth from thy hand
so that my feet may swiftly carry out thy command
And we shall flow a river forth unto thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be
In nomini patriath, fili, espritus sancti.

-The Boondock Saints

I've only been out to a few fighter practices and the thing I'd stress is movement. I've only been hit by one good wrap to the back of my thigh and he just outmanuevered me. I was using a madu(not mine!!! I was using all loaner gear!). I moved the madu to block and he came under the bottom point and up into my thigh. I evaded others simply by not allowing my opponent to close with me like that.

Robert

"its sometimes good being lefthanded. those shots are the FIRST thing lefties learn and the last ones they forget."

Or the good thing about training with a left handed knight. There's just something about not even thinking about changing stance for lefties. It just happens.

I tended to get wrapped often. Now, 5 months later, it happens quite less. Whichever side the wrap is coming towards, that leg pivots back. Wrap almost always falls on the shield that rotated with me. It's quicker than moving my shield via arm, and will sometimes give me a shot that someone wasn't expecting.

At least, they don't expect it the first time. After that, I only get the block.

What Trooper Bill said. Step back with your shield side foot. THis also works great if someone is trying to get you "en passant"

Bjorn

When I started, it was a couple years before anyone told me you could block a leg shot...

Now all I wear on my legs is a layer or two of tights, and don't often lose my legs unless I'm fighting someone really good, or go out of kingdom. :O

Keep trying, eventually you can learn exactly where the edge of your shield is.

to start i would suggest tassets and wrap plates on your legs. even a good heavy gambeson that covers your butt will work.

i just started wearing a gambeson today and what a difference it makes. not a single bruise and i can still feel shots just fine. also started using my new helm today. MUCH better than loaner. all i need to do now is line the inside of the helm with cloth so it doesn't get as sweaty and slimy.

of course i only got hit with one butt-wrap today. im finally getting better at blocking shots(and i used a small round today and got hit less than when i use a heater)

Hello all,

Ban the non-historical wrap shot within the SCA. That would solve the whole problem.

In a real fight the wrap shot would only be effective against a completely unarmored opponent, and then only if it was used as a draw cut - as was seen in some 17th and 18th c. duels, not a slap shot, as is common among SCA fighters. I have never seen a wrap blow that truly had the force to cut through butted mail, let alone riveted mail. And since that's the standard that we are supposedly basing our combat system on, they should not be used at all.

In my own experience as an observer (it's hard to be sure when I'm fighting), over 90% of the wraps I've seen were slightly off the edge, and this would immediately turn the blade flat with a real sword. This conclusion comes from actually testing with a REAL blade on butted mail, gambesons, brigandine, COP, padded jacks, and plate armors. As part of this test, I wore a padded gambeson under mail and took a 'wrap' shot with live steel - the mail got dinged up a bit, but didn't break. I got a hellacious welt and it hurt, but not enough to stop me from fighting. The only occasion in our testing where mail was truly damaged was when the mail was up against a tree - and trees react differently to blows than human bodies do. To get enough force to do substantial damage from a wrap shot, you would have to step almost behind your opponent and completely change the angle of your shot.

Most of the research I've read shows that back wounds were mostly thrusts - the victim was fleeing, not facing their opponent, and many of them were from above, as from a mounted opponent. Other back wounds, rather than being horizontal (the wrap idea) were either diagonal or vertical, again indicating that the blow came from behind.

SCA fighting is supposed to be based on the premise that we're fighting in the style and armor of the late 11th century - mail and conical helms with nasals - not against unarmored opponents using a later period draw cut. In our budding War of the Roses tournament company, our combat will use counted blows based on the armor the fighter is wearing and wrap shots won't be considered legal blows.

I know that doesn't answer your question - it's just my own .02 in here. I agree with the others who suggested to prevent getting so beat up, try a backplate with culets.

Olaf


------------------
Olaf Skalle Krossar
Chieftain
The Armory of Westlig Stjerne
www.armourworks.com
thefolks@armourworks.com

Wait till you get two double cheekers in a row from then on you will block the wrap. Of cource after all the crying.....

"Ban the non-historical wrap shot within the SCA. That would solve the whole problem."

I must say I agree with Olaf on this one. I was thinking of posting a similar message but read his and well...he could definatly explain it much better than me.

That Guy

Unfortunately, since the wrap shot produces enough force for a "killing blow" under SCA rules, there is no easy way to ban it.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Hello again,

Owen - I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

It is convention that decides what a "killing blow" is, not SCA rules. If I feel, in a fair and reasonable assessment, that a certain blow was hard enough to be a killing blow, then it is, no matter what my opponent, or the Marshalls, or, for that matter, the King may wish it to be, it is my decision to make. Conversely, if I choose to require a harder force (remember, that is why we have calibration blows in the SCA), that is also my decision. Our combat is based on the honor system, which puts the obligation to determine the validity of blows given in combat directly on the participants.

The SCA sets the safety standards - Kingdoms can make them stricter if they choose. Individuals - whether fighters themselves, a Marshall, the King or whomever - determine which blows are or aren't considered effective during our combat. Earl Marshalls regularly raise or lower standards within their realm of authority, and expect their sub-marshalls to follow their directions as long as those directions are within the safety guidelines of the Society. Just as any kingdom could decide the rules for siege weapons and certain other weapons as long as those safety standards are observed, any kingdom could also decide whether wrap shots are permitted.

Back in the 'old days', wrap shots weren't used - they developed with the stick jock mentality of winning no matter what. It's been probably ten years since I threw a wrap shot at an opponent, and about that long since I called one as a killing blow that I didn't first check with a marshall whether the blow was on the blade 'edge'.Please keep in mind that because we use a stick with a 'blade' dimension of about an inch versus a real blade dimension of about 1/16th of an inch, the odds were against it being any thing but flat still. If the marshall decided it was an edge, I called the blow. In that same timeframe, I've not had any opponent accuse me of being a rhino-hide, either, since I call all blows fairly.

Just some things to think about...

Olaf



------------------
Olaf Skalle Krossar
Chieftain
The Armory of Westlig Stjerne
www.armourworks.com
thefolks@armourworks.com

Olaf- it is true that the impact level of a "killing blow" is as much a matter of convention as rules, but my point was that if a wrap hits that hard, it's good under the rules. Also, if you try to ban it, you now have a situation of one blow that hits X hard is good, and another that hits X hard isn't, and you might not know which kind hit you, especially blows to the side, rather than the back, of the head. To the guy in the hat, a straight side shot and a side wrap (where the wrist has rolled, and the back edge strikes), look almost identical, and in the midst of battle, might not be distinguishable. That was what I meant by hard to write a good rule to ban them, not that you couldn't simply make a rule banning wraps. I have a similer problem with the rule some kingdoms have banning (as opposed to discouraging) cup shots. A non-target area surrounded by good target area has too many problems, like a fighter yelling, "Cup!" every time a shot gets near it, and not taking it, or shifting to take a blow to the hip on the cup instead. I simply think it would be very difficult to ban wraps without causing new headaches. What about melee? How do you tell what hit you? How do you tell if it was not perfectly straight on? Anyway, refusing to take them is a violation of the rules, currently, and stopping to ask for EVERY shot if it hit right is not, to my mind, a nice thing. At the very least, you should be asking your opponant, not the marshal. btw, define "old days"; I've been fighting for almost 19 years, and they were a standard part of the arsenal back then.

I actually don't care about wraps- I fight spear and polearm, so until I figure out how to wrap a spear shot, it's all acedemic to me.


------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Olaf- it is true that the impact level of a "killing blow" is as much a matter of convention as rules, but my point was that if a wrap hits that hard, it's good under the rules. Also, if you try to ban it, you now have a situation of one blow that hits X hard is good, and another that hits X hard isn't, and you might not know which kind hit you, especially blows to the side, rather than the back, of the head. To the guy in the hat, a straight side shot and a side wrap (where the wrist has rolled, and the back edge strikes), look almost identical, and in the midst of battle, might not be distinguishable. That was what I meant by hard to write a good rule to ban them, not that you couldn't simply make a rule banning wraps. I have a similer problem with the rule some kingdoms have banning (as opposed to discouraging) cup shots. A non-target area surrounded by good target area has too many problems, like a fighter yelling, "Cup!" every time a shot gets near it, and not taking it, or shifting to take a blow to the hip on the cup instead. I simply think it would be very difficult to ban wraps without causing new headaches. What about melee? How do you tell what hit you? How do you tell if it was not perfectly straight on? Anyway, refusing to take them is a violation of the rules, currently, and stopping to ask for EVERY shot if it hit right is not, to my mind, a nice thing. At the very least, you should be asking your opponant, not the marshal. btw, define "old days"; I've been fighting for almost 19 years, and they were a standard part of the arsenal back then.

I actually don't care about wraps- I fight spear and polearm, so until I figure out how to wrap a spear shot, it's all acedemic to me.


------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Olaf,

I know of at least 5 Knights here in the Outlands who can and Do throw Wrap shots Harder and on edge MORE than any other shot they have.

Count Mealgwyn for example throws a wrap as harder than many flat snaps I've recieved from thousands of SCA fighters....

I fear what your exp. is based on is more to those who have yet to correct this technique. and for your analogy on NOT cutting chain with a wrap? I ask have you cut it with a flat snap???????? based on logic alone the tragectory of a wrap and force=velocity ratio, a wrap travels further and faster than a flat snap.... Ergonomics doesnt agree with your theory, niether do I.

Samuel

Samuel is correct:

It is all in the technique. Many fighters just throw wraps with the arm only, and unless they are really, really strong, the blow would probably be ineffective. On the other hand, I picture a wrap similar to snapping a towel or whip. When the end gets to that critical spot and comes around...WHACK. I have taken a dull hatchet and sunken it into a telephone pole using wrap technique, saw another fighter do it into a tree with a broad sword.
I guess another way to look at is to think of a flail. The sword is the business end, your arm is the chain and your body the handle.
I also feel that because wraps frequently strike un/lightly armored areas, like the butt, back of legs/arms, across the mid back, etc., it is way easier to take "inferior" shots, because they can really sting. (Right, Jake?)

BEDLAM

Greetings again, folks -

Owen, Samuel, and Bedlam, you Gentlemen need to re-read my posts. What you seem to think I was saying is that wrap shots aren't capable of being hard hits. Your defense of maintaining the wrap is based on that premise, not its historical validity. My point is quite different than that. The problem with the wrap shot is that most of the blows (way over 90%) will end up flat with a real sword. As I said before, the SCA uses a 1" wide edge which allows the blow to work. If this is done with a real weapon, the success rate declines to the level where the real fighter using it becomes real dead most of the time. It wasn't used in the Middle Ages for a very good reason - it didn't work as a technique for combat. And I would have to agree that the "snap shot" (another shot I don't use) would not be effective either, except against an open- face helm.

What I think that everyone who defends the various odd techniques used in SCA combat forgets is that we are supposed to be a Historical Re-enactment Group, not a Stick Jock Group. I quote: "The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. is a non-profit educational organization devoted to study of the Middle Ages and Renaissance." We don't do that very well when we wear tennis shoes and sunglasses, smoke cigarettes, ride around in golf carts, and yes, use non- historical combat techniques (not for the purpose of safety but to win a mock combat), and then tell people "that's the way in was in the Middle Ages".

I am not saying that taking a stick and swinging it in manner that you Gentleman suggest won't produce a hard blow that would be solid - of course it would. I can dent one of our 12ga. helms with just the right shot, too. I'm well aware of the Physics involved. I'm saying that taking a sword and swinging it in in a wrap shot manner would not damage the opponent or his armor enough to disable him. As I said before, the testing that the bunch of us did 12 years ago showed that when we used the same swing that is used in the SCA, most of the blows turned the blade flat. Gentlemen, I was one of the skeptics. Being tall with long arms, I used wrap shots a lot - it made for an easy way to get around my opponents' shield defense. But when I saw that they couldn't be used as a historical combat tool, I yielded to the evidence and stopped using them. I truly believe that we should be striving to be a Historical Re-creation Group not a Hysterical Recreation group.

As far as needing a Marshall to call EVERY shot, I didn't say any such thing and I feel that is unfair to imply - please re-read my previous posts.

Please understand that I am not trying to be insulting and accuse wrap shot users of cheating or some such nonsense. My points are based on historical evidence and the premise of what the SCA is supposed to be, not on the desire to rid the SCA of a pet peeve of mine. I did have to be shown first hand that it didn't work with a real sword before I would grudgingly admit it.

Olaf

------------------
Olaf Skalle Krossar
Chieftain
The Armory of Westlig Stjerne
www.armourworks.com
thefolks@armourworks.com

Olaf- I just reread your post, and I found another point. My understanding of the Rules if the List is that I determine if a shot met the calibration standard, not that I get to choose what that standard is. You can choose to take a lighter shot, but not a heavier one than "convention". If you choose to acknowledge harder than everyone around you, you are wrong, not them.

I'm not defending wraps per se, just saying I don't think it would be an easy ban to enforce. If you want try, go ahead; ban those whippy-stick swords while you're at it.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Are wrap shots ahistorical? I absolutely believe so. But that's all kind of academic in SCA combat which excludes lower-leg targeting and grappling. In a period fight, if you attempted to close with someone close enough to pull off a wrap, he would have been able to hit you low, shield bash you, or employ a grappling technique. You would not be able to just hang out up-close shield-to-shield like so many of the SCA fights we see.
So, I think a wrap shot is a perfectly valid technique in SCA combat, that I will never use.

Robert

[This message has been edited by Robert de Carruthers (edited 03-12-2001).]

Robert:

Absolutly right. There are not nearly as many "SCA dances" with shield out and up and flapping wraps around. In Tuchux fighting, when someone closes, depending on circumstances, you get a shield bash, sheild edge to the chest/face, lower leg shot or leg sweep, among other nasty things. While wraps do happen, they are not nearly as frequent as in SCA.

BEDLAM

One more time...

Robert and Bedlam: I agree that in historical fighting, grappling and knee and lower leg shots and etc. were used. Those techniques are not allowed within the SCA for safety purposes, which I feel are valid reasons (well, sort of, in the case of lower leg shots). I don't feel using the wrap shot in defiance of historical evidence of its existence is valid no matter how well it works for the status quo. And by the way, I'm glad you don't use the shot either - maybe someday the bulk of the fighters will decide to follow a more accurate style.

Owen: My first involvement with the SCA was with a group of sailors at Norfolk, VA in 1972 - when the SCA was about 4 years old and I was 18. As far as your last post - once again, you are incorrect, both in what I said and in your opinion of my intent. Since you persist in finding fault with me by misinterpreting what I say, I will leave it be, as anything else I may add you will likely find fault with, as well.

Olaf



------------------
Olaf Skalle Krossar
Chieftain
The Armory of Westlig Stjerne
www.armourworks.com
thefolks@armourworks.com

Olaf, since I am obviously not understanding you properly, you could try explaining it better, rather than think I am deliberately trying to find fault. All I said about wraps was that I thought it would be hard to effectively ban them, because they don't "feel" different from most other shots. I never said that we "had" to keep them.

As for the calibration issue, again, perhaps you need to rephrase your statement, if I didn't understand you properly.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

---And now back to the original topic.

First, once you have your own armour things will improve. I hated fighting for years until I put to gether some equipment I was happy with (with very little money invested I might ad). In the mean time, some one here suggested a gambison. Some where on the archive is a recent thread about cotton cloth, this is about gambisons and I have a post that talks about making one using bath towels as the padding. all you need is a sewing machine about $40 in supplies and a weekend (you probably could even do this in just one day). It's a cheap and easy solution to your problem of "just wanting something to take the sting off".

Feel free to E-mail me privatly and I'll give you what help and encouragement I can.

By the way, Hobbs is right. In fact the ladies here enjoy seeing his but so much we have a standing order to leave a bruse every time we fight

Talon

I've been fighting for about six years now, and up until Pennsic 28, I hated it.

I'm not a big guy, and have lots of bones that are really too close to my skin. Initially I wore heavy leather armor that was bulky, but would make me feel safe.

Then I got me a wife. She made me not only a gambeson, but a new canvas armor that I rivited plates into. I can't stress enough the need for a good gambeson.

Not only does it take off the sting, but you'll find that you'll have fewer armor bites as well.

However, I consider good armor a very important thing. You're looking at a good bit of loot for a metal fauld, and almost as much for a chain skirt. There are plenty of budget, easy to make options, though.

Brigandine- like material is perfectly period for you, and easy to make. It seems to me as if Germany was a bit behind the current trends up until the renaissance, at least as far as armor goes. And don't forget that a poorer soldier would inevitably end up wearing something that was the style 20 or more years before.

I hope this helps. SCA combat is never going to be anything like the real thing, and wraps are always going to be around.

HELMUT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schreiber:
<B>I've been fighting for about six years now, and up until Pennsic 28, I hated it.

HELMUT</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Helmut,
You are saying that you fought for 4.5 years and hated it. I've got to ask, why would you do something you hate for 4.5 years? I mean, if you hated your job, you would get a new one and not stay at one that you hated for 4.5 years, right?

Just wondering....

- Scott, who absolutely loves fighting