16th Century Breastplate Question

[Thomas of Monmouth]

I have a question about German Breastplates from the first half of the 16th Century.

They almost always have two small holes at the centre just below the large top roll. Any idea what these were for?

Here is an example.

[Ckanite]

Could be to lock the gorget down, though it doesn't look to be in service with this set.

[InsaneIrish]

huh, I went back and looked through all my stuff. Most of the big roped flat topped Breastplates I have images for have those 2 holes. Interesting.
The only thing I could think of is it somehow helped secure the gorget plate to the breastplate. OR a tie thread through those holes and tied to a chainmaille bishops mantle for when the breastplate was worn with all the limb defense. As was fond of Landsknechts.

[Jason Grimes]

We discussed this years ago here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19934

There is one period illustration that depicts a breastplate being hung from those holes. I'm still leaning towards them being used to point clothing to the armour, like a waffenrock.

[Jason Grimes]

Thinking more on this I think that Patrick's observation is probably the correct one. In that the holes were used during the construction of the armour and only have secondary uses after, like to hang the harness for instance. His observation that the lower holes on the gorget for the center leather sometimes match the holes in the breast and back is very interesting. That and I keep coming back to the fact that most of these holes are place haphazardly. Even though some of them are etched or have brass grommets installed, I feel that those are the exception and not the norm.

If Patrick's idea is correct then what they might have done was to rivet the breast, back, and the gorget together to do the final adjustments so they fit well together. Then the whole cuirass is sent to the polisher for final finish and re-assembly. They might have done the hardening/tempering at this point as well? The double holes would keep the gorget from twisting and the holes in the gorget would have been repurposed for the internal leathers. In this case as well the armourer's might not have cared about the holes in the breast and back to do anything more with them (decoration, blind rivets, etc) except in those exceptional cases I mentioned above.

This reminded me of the picture of the armour and his strikers working on a breast plate here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GyLZwvq-5SE/U ... %A1cs2.jpg

Notice the cuirass sitting behind them, it very well could be under construction, riveted together with the temporary rivets, and still black from the forge?

[Thomas of Monmouth]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your response and the link to the (now decade old!) thread. There are some interesting opinions and observations even though sadly all the image links are long since broken. I hadn't considered the possibility of their use during construction. Interesting theory.

[Thomas of Monmouth]

In this display there appears to be laces at the place where we normally see holes, presumably in some way to attach the cloak. Of course this is the work of a modern curator, who may or may not have access to better research around the true usage of the holes.

[Thomas of Monmouth]

Possibly this image shows a small black lace running through holes. Though if that's the case these holes would be fully diagonal rather than mostly horizontally aligned, and they would need to be tied on the inside. Perhaps, and this is pure speculation now, to create a gap between the breastplate and the gorget to help the gussets more freely without snagging on the gorget.

[Jason Grimes]

Thomas, your first image is one of the images I linked in the old thread. I don't have any more information about the points or if they are even original (doubtful). On your second image I pretty sure that the lace you see is a post that is used to attach a reinforcing breastplate for the tournament. Those were fairly common, especially on the really high end suits like this one. Very cool painting, that is about as fancy as you could get with the Maximilian style.

[Sean Powell]

There are a number of construction holes used for alignment of spaulders and faulds but the un-used half of the hole is always (to the best of my experience) filled with a dummy rivet. I don't know what purpose a pair of holes would serve during the construction phase that a single hole wouldn't do better and I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't fill it with a dummy rivet.

... unless they cut the rivet heads off when they cut off the rolled edges?

Sean

[woodwose]

One idea that was mentioned in the previous thread was that the pairs of holes might have been for suspending the armor in the acid bath for etching; but that did not seem like a likely reason for the holes to be there because the same kind of holes could also be found on breastplates without any etched details. I would like to point out that while we tend to think of acid etching as something that is most often done to leave some decorative effect etched into the surface, etching can also be used to remove the black oxide/scale that is left on steel/iron after hot work.

While I like that answer, I'm still not satisfied with it because I'm not sure that they actually submersed large 3D-shaped plates in the acid for etching. A technique called spit-biting where rather than placing the metal in a bath, the acid is worked over the metal's surface with a rag or paintbrush seems far more practical for shaped armor plates as large as a breastplate. I don't know if any form of spit-bite etching was used in period, but they definitely had the required tools and materials available anyplace that was set up for etching.

Having seen at least one period illustration of breastplates hanging on a wall by laces passed through the mystery holes, I'm fairly happy with that kind of purpose as an explanation.

[Jason Grimes]

Here is that illustration I think. It's very interesting in that he might be doing a final adjustment to the cuirass he is holding. No gorget though.

armourer-sized.jpg (75.68 KiB) Viewed 363 times

[Johann ColdIron]

Here is that illustration I think. It's very interesting in that he might be doing a final adjustment to the cuirass he is holding. No gorget though.

armourer-sized.jpg

That image is pretty much a lock. Not simply conjecture with evidence like that! The best thing about hanging a piece like that is that you are not stressing the mounting straps that way! If they are even attached at this point. Might be a different Guild...

[Jason Grimes]

That image is pretty much a lock. Not simply conjecture with evidence like that! The best thing about hanging a piece like that is that you are not stressing the mounting straps that way! If they are even attached at this point. Might be a different Guild...

That is a very interesting observation, the straps may not be attached yet and those holes would make a very convenient way to hang them before the straps were attached. The other armourer illustrations in the house book usually depict the cuirass hanging with the breast/backplate open and the shoulder straps attached.

armourer2.jpg (82.56 KiB) Viewed 310 times

[Levi Johnson]

Here is that illustration I think. It's very interesting in that he might be doing a final adjustment to the cuirass he is holding. No gorget though.

armourer-sized.jpg

Just a thought but the armour on the wall seems to be hanging from the points where the holes are.