The Armour Archive

Hey Guys me again,

So still messing around trying to actually get half way decent with this. I recently decided to try and recreate an actual piece and do my own pattern for it. I've messed around with patterns before but never based on an actual piece and usually on something I've not done many of.

I chose to do this piece as it seemed simple enough for someone at my level.


Here is my attempt so far.


The wrap around plates are also formed and ready for sanding but are still down the worskshop until I finish the final hinge. Also only have the one image so far but I am interested to see what you guys make of it compared to the original. Am already aware of a number of alterations needed but wanted to see what you guys spotted and any feedback to improve it either this time or the next.

Feel free to tear it a new one.

Regards,

Dave.

Overall, very good!

Heres two, possibly three things...
The poleyn is a little more shallow on yours than the original.
The lower right corner of the demi greave show be more angular and less round (unless the original is like this... In that case nevermind)
The wing on the poleyn looks a bit flat. Its hard to tell without a front view pic, or with the articulation in the same position as the originals photo. But this is how Im reading the photos. Notice how the light reflection on the original creates two lines, if extended towards the middle they would intersect each other at an angle? Now lets go to yours. The two light reflections present are fairly in line with each other, like - -. I interpret that the wing on the original flairs out a bit more than yours, but theres a more important aspect... How well does the wing fit to the rest of the leg armour when the articulation is fully extended?

Nice Work, dude! Got a question though: Why does everyone roll edges outward (a la 14th Century principally) BEFORE the surface you are rolling them onto is sanded smooth. It would seem that makes it tough to get right up to the edge--I was continually ripping up sanding belts trying to do just that. Now I sand at least the area next to the edge being rolled to have a clean surface to roll onto. Seems to make cleaning up the total surface easier.
Thanks! And nice job again!

stallari wrote:Nice Work, dude! Got a question though: Why does everyone roll edges outward (a la 14th Century principally) BEFORE the surface you are rolling them onto is sanded smooth. It would seem that makes it tough to get right up to the edge--I was continually ripping up sanding belts trying to do just that. Now I sand at least the area next to the edge being rolled to have a clean surface to roll onto. Seems to make cleaning up the total surface easier.
Thanks! And nice job again!

I don't. I sand the area of the roll first, the surface of the roll when its at 180 degrees, then close the roll. I tend to not sand things until everything is fitted and no more hammering. I just find it difficult to see proper fit and lines on shiny surfaces, mainly because of the lighting in my shop. Fluorescent lights suck.

Hey Guys cheers for the feedback. I usually sand before rolling but for some reason with this piece I didn't. Already regretting it as I know when I start sanding next week it will be annoying.

As to the point posed by coreythompsonhm, yes the wing is a little flat. I really struggled to get it to move one way without it flattening the other. Hopefully when I can finally afford a decent torch things like this will be a bit easier. However it seems to articulate ok with the wing. Demi-greave will be re-patterned for the next atempt.

Dave J wrote:Hey Guys me again,

So still messing around trying to actually get half way decent with this. I recently decided to try and recreate an actual piece and do my own pattern for it. I've messed around with patterns before but never based on an actual piece and usually on something I've not done many of.

I chose to do this piece as it seemed simple enough for someone at my level.


Here is my attempt so far.


The wrap around plates are also formed and ready for sanding but are still down the worskshop until I finish the final hinge. Also only have the one image so far but I am interested to see what you guys make of it compared to the original. Am already aware of a number of alterations needed but wanted to see what you guys spotted and any feedback to improve it either this time or the next.

Feel free to tear it a new one.

Regards,

Dave.

Dave,

The best feedback is that which comes from within.

Take the piece you have made, and place it in the exact orientation as the original. Put you pic of the original in front of you. Move around until you are looking at your piece from exactly the same place as the camera that took the pic of the original. You will have to mess around a lot the get this right.

Now, compare the pic of the original with the same view of your piece. Make note of what does, and does not, look the same.

This is a powerful technique.

Mac

I'm noticing that there is a pair of lames above the main plate of the cuisse on the original but you opted to go with just one. How come?

coreythompsonhm mentioned he thinks your poleyn is shallower than the original. I think the two arcs are actually quite close. One thing that does jump out at me is the proportions of the main body of the poleyn to the wing. I think the size of your wing is pretty close to the right size, but the poleyn "cup" itself is larger than the original. Also, the transition between the two is essentially two right angles. I personally think that's crazy, they're just asking for cracks to form there. If you are going for a strict reproduction, I'd say follow it even if you know it's counter to common sense. If not, then perhaps just a bit of filing to get those heavily swept areas down to something that at the least suggests a hard turn but doesn't actually meet at a truly square corner.

One last thing and I'll leave you alone - the demi-greave on the original has a somewhat shallow yet still very severe-looking concave sweep to it. It's tough to tell based on the angle of your piece, but it seems that yours is a nearly straight line. Just a little bit of a grind on those lower edges would go a long way. Unfortunately we can't see the vertical sides of the plate, but I think it's very likely that they don't have the same roundedness as yours.

Objectively, I think you've produced a really nice piece here and I'd really like to see how the wrapper plates come out. Doing actual reproductions is a tough gig, especially with jerks like me scrutinizing every inch of your work
Good on ya for doing it!

Looks good to me!

Steve

Cheers for all the good feedback and advice so far.

I'm noticing that there is a pair of lames above the main plate of the cuisse on the original but you opted to go with just one. How come?

I did make the second lame. However it made the whole thing to long on my legs. Whilst they are not for me and will be for general sale I am over 6' tall with most the height in my legs. So chances are they'd be to long for most people.

As to the rest of the feedback and tips. I'll try and implement some of them when I can work on these later in the week. Will post pics once done and they're finished.

EDIT: One thing I did mean to ask you guys. On the cuisse plate about an inch from the edge you have a crease. But wasn't sure from the pic if this continued onto the lames and demi-greave. What do you guys think?

Browin-When I said it was a little more shallow, I meant a little

I know its splitting hairs.

On your last question- I suspect the crease doesn't extend to the lames or demi-greave. The lames can't extend much farther into the fan than the articulation points. They'd collide with the strap rivet in the middle, and chew up your leg. The demi-greave could extend as far around as the crease in the cuisse, but there's less reason for it. The muscles at the top of the calf make a more cylindrical shape than the thigh. (It would be closer to think of the top of the calf as a sphere blending into a cylinder, but in any case, the inflection point of that crease isn't there.)

Gaston de Clermont wrote:On your last question- I suspect the crease doesn't extend to the lames or demi-greave. The lames can't extend much farther into the fan than the articulation points. They'd collide with the strap rivet in the middle, and chew up your leg. The demi-greave could extend as far around as the crease in the cuisse, but there's less reason for it. The muscles at the top of the calf make a more cylindrical shape than the thigh. (It would be closer to think of the top of the calf as a sphere blending into a cylinder, but in any case, the inflection point of that crease isn't there.)

I expect you are right about the crease. I haven't seen any sign of creases under the wings, but I beg to differ on the length of the lames.

One of the most oft messed up things I see in SCA armour is lames that end before the wing. Lames extend under the wing so you never have a chance to have that annoying, unsightly gap between the end of the lames and the wing. Often, they go farther than you would think and have nice log almost-points sticking out to make sure there can't be any gap. Some of the mid-late 15th c. Italian cuisses (of which this is one) actually wrap pretty far around at the lames and what we call demi-greave. The cops tend to be pretty narrow though. If you have access to Mantova, or even L'Arte, you can see a few from the inside. It is most illuminating.

The set I have lying around actually has "demi-greaves" that sort of snap onto the greave in a nice solid way. They wrap past the parallel point a little bit. It gives things a nice fit.

Wade

So been a bit busy since last posting. Got an order shortly after my last post so the legs had to go on the back burner until that was finished then got married last week. However I've finally finished them.

Due to being put on the back burner and my very bad memory I forgot to do any of the alterations suggested on here but I have made alterations to the pattern for next time.

Anyway here is a pic of the finished piece. Really shows how long I did the cuisse plates. Also need to shorten the wrap around plates for next time as they do dig in a little. Also the knee cop goes into a very sever point down the centre whilst the original does not.

Browin Auld wrote: I personally think that's crazy, they're just asking for cracks to form there. If you are going for a strict reproduction, I'd say follow it even if you know it's counter to common sense. If not, then perhaps just a bit of filing to get those heavily swept areas down to something that at the least suggests a hard turn but doesn't actually meet at a truly square corner.

The way I deal with this is to punch a hole in the corner, usually around 1/4" diameter. I think it's a happy medium between crack resistance and appearance.

Some nice modeling on the fans. We don't see enough really stylin' 15th-c. fans here.