The Armour Archive

Not sure whether to call these greaves, schinbalds or gutters, frankly.

I finally got off my fat butt last night and got started on these.

The version shown is the left leg, about 2 hours of work after cutting to shape it to this point.
(Well...maybe 20 minutes to get the basic shape, and 2 hours of fussy detail hammering for the curvature and some planishing.)

These are not intended to be cased greaves- there is no solid backplate planned.

I really, really need several tools before I am ready to tackle fully cased greaves- But I think I am almost there in terms of skill.
I really want one of Halberds' 90 degree saddle stakes for this kind of work... Its my next priority, soon as I can swing it.

These may or may not get a crease when I am satisfied as to shape.
I lack a creasing stake entirely, and the shaping on this one so far was done with very improvised tools..Including a thick beach towel, folded and hammered on for some of the dishing part.
(I actually got the main bowing out on the sides by dishing into one of Llewelyn Goddodin's large iron dishing forms, and hand bending the dished shape out straight....Really made the job fast and easy!)

As you can see from the side view, the front does not curve deeply enough to follow the lower leg's natural shape.
I'm working on it... But for now, this is about as good as I can get with the tools I have.


These are mostly for a harness I am working on, that I intend to wear to a convention in January... If I finish it in time.
(You can see the "in progress" globose breastplate in the background in one shot.)

Materials for the greaves are 18 gauge mild steel.

I started with the greave pattern from "The complete late 14th century armour" from Doug Strong's Historical research press.

He recommends using the patterns as a starting point and refining to fit yourself...Very good advice, as the pattern traced straight from the book won't fit me.

Some construction paper and maybe 20 minutes gave me a pattern that does fit, so the book is an excellent starting point, and a valuable resource.

I have not finalized what will go on the back of these just yet- I lean heavily towards either shaped splints, or a laced mail calf like what I have seen others do.
(Kind of like a maille sock with laces to tighten and adjust up the front of the leg, under the greave plate.)

Theres a type of 4 panel, large shaped splint style leg defense from the Osprey books on Poitiers and Gaunt's grand chevauchee that I might crib from.
No idea what the artist took it from though..Or if he made it up- I have never seen the style outside of an Osprey book.

The maille sock design would be faster and easier to make.
So its up in the air right now.

Pics below, comments and suggestions welcome.

-Badger-

In English sources these are schynbalds, skinbaux, skinbaud, etc. as greaves cover both shin and calf. I would think a gutter plate would be curved, but without shaping. Usually these are worn over cloth hosen or mail chausses, though there is some documentary evidence for "mail socks" or chaussons, I would expect they are suspended from some sort of garter, with lacing at the ankle to tighten the fit. I'm not sure most of the illustrated examples cover so much of the ankle.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... chynbalds"

I expect you will end up being more comfortable if you have some more sweep in the center. This allows them to fit the leg better and keep the weight off of your ankle.

I built a couple of pairs of these for me and my kid. With enough sweep, and straps put in the right place (top one over the calf, like a garter), they will hang from the calf and put no weight on your ankles, making them much more comfortable to wear and walk in.

You can get an impression of my kid's shape here:

http://www.allenantiques.com/R-31.html

I also cheated and did the mail as a pair of socks. In this case, I used a lace at the top to "garter" them on too. I expect a little more solid suspension would be better for a heavy duty solution. Lighter mail would have helped a little too.

Wade

Thanks for the advice, Wade.

The shape is not "set" just yet.
How much I can tinker with it will be a function of available time, as the harness right now is a pile of mostly shaped parts lying on a bench...
The breastplate, spalders, knee cops and cuisses are all dished and need planishing/sanding.

The backplate is about half shaped, but since I did the shaping mostly by bending it to shape, I am not satisfied with it. I will likely bend it back and dish it into shape instead for the compound curvature it needs.

I have a pattern for the fauld lames... But I need to decide how many and how wide.
Doug's book has a great trick with a torch for fitting them. And they are easy to get basic, shallow curvature in minutes using the dishing form and a broad faced dishing hammer.

The elbows and vambraces are patterned, just not cut out yet.
I am starting the gauntlets over again from scratch, as I decided the initial ones were just a little too small in the wrist "tunnel" for the hand to enter and leave when putting them on. (I could get them on by struggling...But I decided that was just not right.)

I need to pattern lames and demigreaves for the legs, and the rerebrace and lames for the arms, but thats maybe an hour with some cardstock and the cops till the shape is comfy.

The mail haubergeon will be cut down for voiders and a skirt.
I just do not have the patience to size it right now, and the armor I am making is late enough to make those preferable.
The extra mail left over will provide plenty of raw material for any other bits needed.

I wound up getting one of the "high tension wire" coifs from Kult of Athena a while back, and I don't like the way it hangs with its trapezoidal panels for expansion.
So I'll most likely take it apart at some point and re-weave it for a true cone and use it to make an aventail instead.
(I have 2 or 3 aventails lying around at this point, ready to use...Its not a priority.)

The helmet I currently have for this is a crappy 18 gauge thing... But its basic shape isn't too bad, if worn open faced.

So it'll do for looks, for now.

The harness is being made up in 16 and 18 gauge mild, with an intent to make it wearable for SCA combat one day.
(Gauntlets for that will be made specifically for SCA use, and a different set from the 18 gauge mild ones I am making now.)

I've been working on this for months, off and on.
The actual assembly and final metal finishing is all thats really left for most of the suit.

-Badger-

wcallen wrote:I expect you will end up being more comfortable if you have some more sweep in the center. This allows them to fit the leg better and keep the weight off of your ankle.

I built a couple of pairs of these for me and my kid. With enough sweep, and straps put in the right place (top one over the calf, like a garter), they will hang from the calf and put no weight on your ankles, making them much more comfortable to wear and walk in.

You can get an impression of my kid's shape here:

http://www.allenantiques.com/R-31.html

I also cheated and did the mail as a pair of socks. In this case, I used a lace at the top to "garter" them on too. I expect a little more solid suspension would be better for a heavy duty solution. Lighter mail would have helped a little too.

Wade

Wade,

Describe sweep? do you mean the constriction around the lower part of the leg.

RPM

Describe sweep? do you mean the constriction around the lower part of the leg.

No. I believe what he is saying is that the portion of the greave that swells to accommodate the calf muscle should constrict at the upper portion of the greave (nearest the knee). This way the greave is prevented from sliding down the leg by the calf muscle itself, instead of the top of your foot.

Steve

I should be clearer.
The thing that is most often omitted in the construction of a greave (front only or fully-cased) is the shape of the center line when you look at the greave from the side. When you just curl up a piece of metal, you get a straight line. When you look at your leg from the side, the front of the leg is not straight. It has a small-ish bump out at the top just below the knee, then it sweeps in a little bit in the center and then back out more extensively at the top of the foot.

Some of this shape is put into a greave just so it looks better. But some part of this is necessary to make the greave actually fit on your leg without hurting you.

The posted greave fronts are almost straight at the front with a little bit of flair at the bottom. This really isn't enough to make them work well when you wear them.

When we design greaves we seem to focus on a rounded shape at the calf and then a flair at the bottom to allow the ankle bones to fit. This is actually the easy part. Getting a good shape above the ankle is a lot more trouble since you have to move more material in the middle of the piece. But it is critical to actually having a greave not hurt when it is worn.

I was wearing my greave fronts at a practice and I forgot to buckle the lower strap. The greave still stayed in place and did not, in any way, hurt. It fits well enough (not really right, but well enough) that it fits on the leg when hanging from the upper strap over the calf.

If you want to get advanced, it also appears that the goal was to enhance the natural form a little. You can pull the crease at the center out a little bit and give the leg a taller, slightly narrower look, but that is really above and beyond.

Wade

Wade,

Totally with you now. Makes much more sense. And you as always are right. If you look at your tibia it is curved so a straight greave fits poorly.

RPM

Yes, the flat frontal shape as you note is a problem I intend to correct.
(As noted in the original posting, and shown in the third image.)

For now, I lack a good stake and raising hammers for that, so changing the line of the front is really hard at the moment.
I did get a little of the shape I wanted in the initial hammering- But I am still working on how to push it in to go where I want.

I've been a professional artist, drawing the human form for around 14 years.
So the proper shape the greaves should have has been one of my most serious concerns since the beginning.
(And has been bugging hell out of me nonstop...)

How much of the right curve/sweep I can manage with what I have to work with, will just have to be determined as I progress.

I may be able to get the shaping I want by using carved wooden forms, since the metal is rather soft mild steel.

The drawback is that it has to be worked cold over or in those forms- Heating small areas for controlled shaping is tricky without setting the wood on fire.
The metal isn't fighting me yet from work hardening.
But its going to need an annealing pass before long.
Not hard to do.

I really should break down and buy a raising hammer- Or get a few cheap ball peen hammer heads and grind them down.
(Time limits again...Buying a ready made one is better than taking the time to make one right now...But cash is tight.)

Still, its good to get feedback, which is confirming my own observations, and pointing out things I manage to overlook.

Ah, the joys of garage armouring!

-Badger-

You know I need a good raising hammer as well. What are you thinking of getting?

What do you use Wade?

RPM

Randall, I've found this to be an inexpensive and decent raising hammer, after you dress the face to be smoother and knock down the sharp edges.

http://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9878082/01036/

Damn!
That would make a great raising hammer, Keegan.

Thanks for the link!

-Badger-

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Randall, I've found this to be an inexpensive and decent raising hammer, after you dress the face to be smoother and knock down the sharp edges.

http://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9878082/01036/

Sure thing! If Pep Boys isn't carrying it, you can find the exact same hammer on Amazon at the same price. For $8.50, you can't not grab a couple.

I actually found one on ebay... And the seller does not ship to California.

Seriously...Does not ship to California?
Whats up with that?
Guy is in Ohio or Indiana... Its not like he has to pay state sales tax.

I'll check around the local pep boys some time this week.
They are definitely cheap enough to get a few to experiment with in making differently shaped faces.

-Badger-

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Sure thing! If Pep Boys isn't carrying it, you can find the exact same hammer on Amazon at the same price. For $8.50, you can't not grab a couple.

For raising things like greaves? Assuming I am actually raising them? Instead of doing one of my metal moving experiments?

I use a ball pein with the face slightly rounded and the edges rounded all the way off. When I say face, I mean the big end, not the ball end. This means I am usually raising with a rounded octagonal face, not a "raising" hammer.

I make greaves using a pipe stake as my main working tool. There is no need for cool shaped stakes. You just tip the piece up and hit it. Heat does make things easier. Lots easier.

Wade

Ironbadger wrote:Yes, the flat frontal shape as you note is a problem I intend to correct.
(As noted in the original posting, and shown in the third image.)

For now, I lack a good stake and raising hammers for that, so changing the line of the front is really hard at the moment.
I did get a little of the shape I wanted in the initial hammering- But I am still working on how to push it in to go where I want.

I've been a professional artist, drawing the human form for around 14 years.
So the proper shape the greaves should have has been one of my most serious concerns since the beginning.
(And has been bugging hell out of me nonstop...)

How much of the right curve/sweep I can manage with what I have to work with, will just have to be determined as I progress.

I may be able to get the shaping I want by using carved wooden forms, since the metal is rather soft mild steel.

The drawback is that it has to be worked cold over or in those forms- Heating small areas for controlled shaping is tricky without setting the wood on fire.
The metal isn't fighting me yet from work hardening.
But its going to need an annealing pass before long.
Not hard to do.

I really should break down and buy a raising hammer- Or get a few cheap ball peen hammer heads and grind them down.
(Time limits again...Buying a ready made one is better than taking the time to make one right now...But cash is tight.)

Still, its good to get feedback, which is confirming my own observations, and pointing out things I manage to overlook.

Ah, the joys of garage armouring!

-Badger-

Howdy, good start on the greaves IB. I use a 4 or 5 inch steel pipe to compress the area above the ankle to get some sweep in my greaves, seems to work ok and most peeps have access to a pipe.

Happy Hollidays

Pitbull

Well, to update...

I managed ot get a decent length of very thick walled pipe, and have begun the compression work.
I really need to anneal before going on, but its beginning to look more greave-like.
And I really should get the right leg started at least far enough to compare to the other while working.

Scored one of the hammers from Pep boys last night as well.
I'll start grinding and polishing the faces in maybe a few days.
I was really exhausted last night when I was done with the day's running around, so I just collapsed in bed.

I did finish a largish seax, so the day wasn't completely without progress.

-Badger-