Anyone try making Plate Maille?

[Ckanite]

Funny that you mention all of that Kon. I imagine that I do things on both sides of the fence. Hard numbers at work, soft ones in the shop.

[Konstantin the Red]

Ayup. As needed.

[Charles Alexander]

Found some for a reasonable price - http://www.ebay.com/itm/221230048935?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

But it's galvanized.

[Konstantin the Red]

That can be chemically stripped, with good ventilation to carry off hydrogen and other fumey stuff. Several acids get the job done, from jug vinegar to swimming pool acid/masonry cleaner. That stuff is diluted hydrochloric acid, and may be further diluted for control. Reacts more strongly and faster with the zinc coating than with the steel beneath, and so the bared steel can be lifted out, rinsed down, and doused in strong baking soda solution to halt the acid. Oil immediately, as this metal is now extremely prone to fast rusting.

[Voshe]

Now that the serious stuff is out of the way, here's some wierd stuff I played with a few years back.I made the punch/button set for 1 1/2" (across the flats) hexagons. I used a combination of scrap aluminum 3003 .088"thick and 6061 T6 .071"thick. The holes are .140" dia. in each corner. The .265 ID links are made from 16 gage (.062") ss spring temper wire. Inspired by an old black & white picture of Mongol horsemen posing in their armor. One of them was wearing something like this. Makes very light med protection armor designed for Amtgard. Was thinking of revisiting the hexagons with a new piece using a japanese 6 in one weave between patches of the hexagonal plates.


A more recent picture of it being worn by a young borrower.

The piece had been much longer (down to upper legs), but didn't work well till it was shortened to its present length. Longer, the piece was restrictive, and didn't have the give needed to twist between pelvis & shoulders.

[Mac]

Found some for a reasonable price - http://www.ebay.com/itm/221230048935?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

But it's galvanized.

It is also only .014" think. That's about half as thick as you want.
Mac

[Charles Alexander]

Nice work Voshe... Would be cool to see that design mixed with a full mongolian outfit.

[RoundTop]

When doing holes, I've been using the old "stack 'em 5 high, clamp down and use a drill press" method. It makes sure the holes are in the same place for all the plates.

[Voshe]

Nice work Voshe... Would be cool to see that design mixed with a full mongolian outfit.

Thank you. I lost the picture when my old PC caught a cold, and haven't been able to find it again. If memory serves, the hex mail cuirass (proper term?) was the only hexagonal pattern in the armor.

[Charles Alexander]

I obtained some 20 gauge strapping at a reasonable price. More than I need so if anyone needs some let me know.

[The Lost Celt]

so what are the typical thicknesses/make one would need for steel strapping for them to be viable? I'm assuming they're hardened already? And TRL doesn't sell materials for riveted maille anymore it seems, what is a good source these days for both full flat rings and the type you'd need to rivet? Hell any advice on the experience is worth it...

[Konstantin the Red]

That's why we're interested in pallet strapping, Lost Celt. It's very thin and very stiff for its gauge. Smack it on something and it doesn't go 'tap tap' it rings 'bwisshh bwisshh.'

So it keeps weight very reasonable in any small-scales much-overlapped situation like a brig.

Turning to mail sources, there's a spendy solution to "full flat rings," usually called stamped or punched among the maillers: they're called "spacer rings" and washer manufacturers punch these out. Naturally, they are to any desired spec: ID, OD, thickness, material. Probably there's a minimum order from the factory. So if you're willing to deal in the necessary ten thousands, you're well off. And there's half your links already.

And there's already a LOT around the Net on building your riveted links from scratch. You use um chimpish toolz, hit um with four-pound hammer, learn um use eensy drift. Really pretty simple. Also really pretty tedious, so it's not a bad idea to have the stereo on!

[The Lost Celt]

That's why we're interested in pallet strapping, Lost Celt. It's very thin and very stiff for its gauge. Smack it on something and it doesn't go 'tap tap' it rings 'bwisshh bwisshh.'

So it keeps weight very reasonable in any small-scales much-overlapped situation like a brig.

Turning to mail sources, there's a spendy solution to "full flat rings," usually called stamped or punched among the maillers: they're called "spacer rings" and washer manufacturers punch these out. Naturally, they are to any desired spec: ID, OD, thickness, material. Probably there's a minimum order from the factory. So if you're willing to deal in the necessary ten thousands, you're well off. And there's half your links already.

And there's already a LOT around the Net on building your riveted links from scratch. You use um chimpish toolz, hit um with four-pound hammer, learn um use eensy drift. Really pretty simple. Also really pretty tedious, so it's not a bad idea to have the stereo on!

Dude your killing me...

I just want an idea of what will hold up, if people are posting that's at least half the gauge you want that's something... I'm also aware of people using the 4pd hammer to make flat rings, bit more ocd than I'd like, and I was the guy with the strap cutter and the belt end die last time I made a leather suit, before I stopped counting was around 840 scales, I get what you're saying but I ain't gonna go about smashing every ring individually. Point was I want to make this, and I want it to last, I can get how butted rings would be a bad choice, don't wanna put the effort in and find it not worthy... and if spacer rings aren't a viable option it's still 1/5th on a 4 in one weave... Can't help but think you're coming a bit off as condescending here...

[Konstantin the Red]

and if spacer rings aren't a viable option it's still 1/5th on a 4 in one weave...

Say what? Actually, that's half and half the links. Of the four-in-one "Basic Unit" of mail, the riveted link is the one link in the center of this quincunx. The other four are closed already and you just hang them on the opened middle one and close it up. Though that 4:1 ratio doesn't hold up long; when you've woven a mailpatch of the stuff, you end up with alternating rows of punched solids and of riveted links, likely with a slight bias towards the punched ones, which would be on either edge -- the sides, not the top and bottom. With a completed article or shirt of mail, even that much bias nearly disappears. And you still save half the weaving time.

This yields you mail about half the weight, perhaps rather more, of the usual butted, for fifteen times the strength. I'd say that sounds pretty worthy to me, and all the more so in a demo/living-history context -- up close, what real mail was really like. You can lighten the load further if you're willing to limp along on a mere ten times.

Typically, it's 5/8 the weight, comparing 18ga wire (.048") to 14ga (.080") -- a hair less than 5/8 the wire diameter. Getting the spacer rings made slenderer than .048" will save further weight, and with twenty thousand rings that can really add up.

[Voshe]

I know that most knowledgeable armorers will advocate the use of riveted and punched rings over butted. It is true that this is a superior form of chain. A closed ring is much stronger, so you don't have to use as much material in making armor grade chain. In our group, I encourage butted. Doesn't scare off as many people. Butted is enough work on it's own and few, even among the enthusiastic, have the patience for it. I recommend high tensile 70,000 PSI 14 gage galvanized electric fence wire making 3/8" ID (or smaller) links. If you don't want to go through the trouble of making the rings, "Ring Lord" sells the same size in the same material. Makes (heavy) low maintenance chain mail. For the sake of weight, keep the size down to byrnie, and gambesons do help. Spring temper 16 gage 5/16" ID will also make good armor grade butted chain.

[Konstantin the Red]

Right enough, Voshe. Making riveted is for the determined -- the fanatical -- the long-attention-span -- and the mailling-bee mavens who turn mailmaking into a social occasion, all that and chips & dip too. Good occasion to learn traditional SCA songs and filks.

(Not sure just how SCA traditional I'm So Wet (The Shower Song) is, in spite of having learned it off Richard the Strange lo these many years back. Pulls the same leg as Scotland's Depraved, if that's its title...)

Butted or riveted, it's all a lot like knitting. Springy steel butted isn't materially better against sharps but it's got something to recommend it against sticks.

[Konstantin the Red]

Aaannnnd -- whaddaya know. Drawn from the files of Rialto, I think.

http://www.3pintsgone.com/lyrics/Scotla ... raved.html -- 1999 CE date. Rest of the album looks entertaining too, if not anywhere near so kinky. But you can check by clicking on the tracks in the list.

Comedy gold here on YouTube. Also pretty much entirely different words from any of the above.

[Voshe]

Never thought of using chain weaving as a social occasion. I've done it with plate, and leather, but those are for more of a working get together. We show up at some ones shop, and one guys over there banging on plate while two more are arguing over where the lines of a pattern should be, and 3 more are just BSing. Chain makes more since. A more absent minded thing to do while speaking or listening. In our group, one has dubbed it "MAN WEAVING", and it stuck. In mixed company, and in mock chauvinism, he will announce "Tis a manly thing to do, and if women participate, they are simply doing a manly thing". He ducks well. It has been my experience that ladies who wear armor have little trouble expressing themselves.
I liked the song, and it's variations. Suitably depraved.

[Konstantin the Red]

"Warknitting" is another good 'un, a kenning from some surviving poem, has a line in it about a weapon, "ruin of war-knittings." Good for putting color in your ch... speech. Unfortunately the Net won't be a lot of help running its source down. Unless you really want to knit your own Beowulf Socks. Hwaet!

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Along with an R-rolling observation about "Noo that's deprrravit!"

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At risk of drifting the thread, an extract from Ewart Oakeshott, Introduction to the Viking Sword, available here on Google.com/books. Oakeshott gives a whole string of names and kennings for swords, including "Harmer of War Knittings." [his caps]

[Owen Longstrider]

Like this?


Maille and plates V.2.1 detail by Armourkris, on Flickr


Maille and plates V.3.0 by Armourkris, on Flickr


Then yes, I have, and I cant recommend enough that you use riveted rings if you plan on doing the same, at least if you also want to fight in it. mine started out with butted rings, but needed repairs after every time it was fought in, since I swapped it out to riveted it's lost 1 link.

My plates are made from 1 1/4" pallet banding, and i used 9/32 holes? i think, 3 on each side of each plate. thank god for whitney punches.

You sir, have very pretty armor; it looks simply AWESOME!!

[Armourkris]

Why Thank you! It's even prettier now IMHO, I just finished replacing the tassety bits at the waist with a proper riveted maille fauld, next up is a new gorget, then bazubands and gauntlets. Gotta love those projects that never ever end

[Ernst]

Got to sympathize with the cat, trying to figure out the best place to climb or leap to...

[The Lost Celt]

Curious to know what a reasonable thickness in banding would be, found only one source of pre-made rings so far... If need be will go to a local metal dealer and see if they can take an equivelant sheet and shear it into strips for me... Though I do think the banding could be potentially lighter if I can find a source...

[Armourkris]

the pallet banding i used was 20 gauge, but it's springy stuff, for mild steel i would think 18 gauge would be fine, that said, there is a fair bit of overlap in this stuff so the weight adds up faster than you'd think, so maybe 20 gauge stainless if your getting it sheared into strips? really anything that would make for good lamellar should work

[The Lost Celt]

Figured 20 with overlap, thanks, the armor you made is beautiful btw - As for weight how much is it if you don't mind me asking? Figure it'd be a little heavier but hopefully wear the same. Curious how you did the closures on yours?

[The Lost Celt]

Found this as a potential source for strapping... 200ft for under $40, hair under 20g high carbon.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#14615t46/=qojsdt

Only problem is its painted black, and iirc that stuff does not come off easy. Probably simpler to blacken the rings.

Have 2000 rings from by the sword... having trouble with some of the rivets smashing down and not sure if its the rivets or the tool...

[Konstantin the Red]

So, some calculating: 4" x 1.5" to the scale, 3 scales to the foot, 600 scales/roll. Sounds like this would get around most people pretty well... now how tall are you? The immediate question seems to be "do I need 600 scales for the job or do I need enough for 1200? Or do I include some larger, non-strip pieces here and there too, or just budget enough mail in?"

Guess it's time to ask Armorkris how many scales he needed -- and he's a skinny ole beanpole.

Your rivets are folding over? Are they triangular rivets? If so they are too long for the job: the broad end has to go in flush with the surface of the overlap, or it will bend. Pix of the problem helpful.

[The Lost Celt]

So, some calculating: 4" x 1.5" to the scale, 3 scales to the foot, 600 scales/roll. Sounds like this would get around most people pretty well... now how tall are you? The immediate question seems to be "do I need 600 scales for the job or do I need enough for 1200? Or do I include some larger, non-strip pieces here and there too, or just budget enough mail in?"

Guess it's time to ask Armorkris how many scales he needed -- and he's a skinny ole beanpole.

Your rivets are folding over? Are they triangular rivets? If so they are too long for the job: the broad end has to go in flush with the surface of the overlap, or it will bend. Pix of the problem helpful.

I'm 5'5, medium to skinny build, around 154pds, not a big guy for sure.

The rivets are dome, the rings are round with flattened ends for the rivets.

I'm using pliers with a divot in the ends to mash em down, First 20 made a satisfying popping noise then the next few attempts went sideways and didn't want to mushroom out. I do have a few set aside I'm hoping to peen and save... Think I'll have more success with my jewelers anvil and a domed punch, but man those things are tiny!

Will try to get a post up but my next day off is Sunday and I don't have a public site to post pics so would have to find one... and nieces will be in house.

There was a fair amount of grit in the packaging, I suspect it's machined and possibly may have hardened in the process, might be a crazy hunch...

Not sure if this is gonna be harder or easier than butted maille, ideally introducing the banded portions would offset the time weaving, looks to be the same if not worse if you disclude the learning curve, but still cool...

Thinking it will be longer but much happier with overall object in the long run...

[Armourkris]

Yep, I'm a beanpole all right. I'm 5'11" and weigh in at a whopping 140 lbs having said that my armour fit me a little better when I was 160.
Now, having just hopped off the scale with and without my armour I can say that just the torso armour weighs 20 lbs, give or take a little as bathroom scales aren't the most accurate. keeping that in mind I'd guestimate the whole suit at around 50 lbs, maybe as much as 60 lbs.
Lost Celt, that banding you found at McMaster Carr should be perfect, that's the same kind of banding I used for mine. that black lacquer on them is tough though. I got the bulk of mine stripped off and the plates polished in an industrial tumbling machine, I worked at the place so it was free for me, but we charged customers about $75 per load. that said, everything I've done since the initial build I've cleaned myself using a drill mounted flap disc then given a quick once over with a purple scotchbrite pad. it matches the tumbled ones almost exactly and after a bit of weathering is indistinguishable. I think the flap disc was 120 grit but I cant find it to say for sure.
Alternately if one side is just plain black you could leave that as the outside, I've got some apocalypse themed maille and plates that I used 3/4" banding for and didn't clean it of. the blackening on them gradually wears off at the overlaps, but personally I find it to be an aesthetically pleasing wear pattern, it actually matches really well with pieces that i've blackened with linseed oil. Sometimes I wish I'd done the same for my other maille and plates.
Oh, I counted the plates, I've got a total of 190 plates in mine currently but I removed the plates below the waist and replaced them with maille and also took out the 2 rows of plates at the top of the shoulder, so it's a little different than in the picture right now.
As for the front closure I used 7 straps and buckles. They're just riveted into every third plate up the opening.

For your rings you said your having trouble riveting them? are you using the rivets that came with them? I got my rings from Ice Falcon and I found that the supplied rivets were way to hard to peen with pliers, normalizing them helped a little but in the end I just made my own rivets. All I did was get a roll of re-bar wire, it's 16 gauge and dead soft to start with, then I just cut little 3/32 or so bits of wire and used them as the rivets. Even with the time spent cutting them it was faster than struggling with the rivets that came with the rings. So that's something you might want to try. also, check over your rings that made a satisfying popping sound, with mine at least I found that the popping usually indicated that I had swelled the rivet enough to crack the ring. I find that on a good ring you can feel the rivet mushroom through the tongs, but it doesn't make any sound.

Once your through the learning curve I find that it goes at about half the speed of butted maille, but you make up for that in not having to spend an hour or so on repairs after every time you use it. since I switched to riveted rings I've only replaced 3 or 4 rings.

Lastly had you given any thought to how you were going to pattern out your plates?my first build i just did straight columns, it worked but it could have definitely been better. since then the best way I've found is to have a friend duct tape you into a shirt, then cut it off. stuff it with newspaper to make it you shaped again then draw on where you want your columns of plates to go leave space for the maille and dont forget the hourglass shaped row down your spine, that one row will take care of 90% of your tailoring. once you've got it all marked out cut it out, transfer it onto some poster board or something like that, clean it up and straighten the edged then use that as a template for fitting your plates against. i cut and fit my plates against the template, stacking them in place as i go, then once you've got a column done i come back and punch all my holes. then i lay them back out again, and run a bit of tape up both sides to keep them together and repeat the process for the next column. once i have a few done i come back and put them together with the maille, that way i can weave rings through the holes in the plates, but use pre riveted rings for the center and theoretically save myself a little time.
also you'll probably find it easier to curve 2' sections of banding and cut plates from that than try to curve hundreds of 4" sections and keep them consistent.

Anyways, this has turned into more than a quick post, so I hope some of that is useful. if there is anything else i can help with just ask.

[Konstantin the Red]

More that a quick post it may be, but it's good to have this how-to from experience. To put it mildly. Thank you Kris!

[The Lost Celt]

More that a quick post it may be, but it's good to have this how-to from experience. To put it mildly. Thank you Kris!

Gotta say the same, I've had a few long shifts so I haven't settled down to digest all the information.

Glad to get a confirmation that I nailed a good candidate for strapping material, seems like $32 is a reasonable cost to spend on material vs $100+ for a larger spool, what I hadn't figured out is you took the time to grind that finish off (and you figure it's quite common on most steel banding) - That must've been a PITA, and I wonder if there's a chemical method, though I doubt it. Still, good candidate for a coat of plates for sure... And there is a McMaster about 45min from here...

Popping noise on the rivets? I didn't think of that, and as some of them are mispunched it's gotta be the ring or the rivet - You're probably right, a "blowout" would make more sense...

Second, you read my mind on the fitting. Getting the rings was the first part - I can join 1/4 of them together while I get the rest together and I was just thinking about this the night before. I was considering the newspaper/chickenwire/duct tape thing for the exact same reason. I can eyeball it, but if you're wanting to put it together I'd want to start at the spine and work toward the chest, So you caught me at the "how the hell am I going to put it all together bit?"

Other half of the coin... blackening, been looking into it and considering it for this project. Does this wear well on maille is the main thing, and secondly would it blend the coated steel bands? Part of me wants to get rivets that are brass or something silver that won't stain just because it'd look neat, but in my case I was thinking of chemical treating and didn't know how a non-ferrous metal would react...