The Armour Archive

Anyone attempt something like this? -

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/N ... echter.jpg

Turkish or Persian design.

I've helped some other guys with their tatami do and bekhterets in the decades past.

The first one I experimented with was made from fencing wire and the lames from some old transformers. Start by making a patch of the construction to get the overlap and the size of the holes right.

ring closures are *very* important (or riveting) -- some folks I know had problems with the plates slipping through rings that started gapping.

Closest I've made was this piece:
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/tops/bikechaincorset34.jpg

woodwose, is that made from bike chain pieces? that is really cool is it comfortable for the wearer?

I always say "mail and plates" or the name of the particular variety -- krug, bakhterets etc. -- so as not to sound like one who only knows armor from Gary Gygax, of -- quick Google -- blessed memory.

Yeah, been done successfully. The small-plate varieties like the bakhterets can really use stiff plates snipped from 2" pallet strapping band. The larger plate kinds like the central Asian, Turk and Mogul krug can rely more on the size of their pieces plus their decorative fluting and forming to stoutly resist denting.

What they said about the holes for the mail links. If you don't want large diameter holes for the links to lie at their natural angle in, then make the holes oblong to allow it. Otherwise the links joining the mail strips to the plate stand on end all lumpy and are more vulnerable.

Which variety do you think you'll construct, and what helmet are you pairing it with -- a helmet you've got or one you want?

Holes are generally fairly large compared to wire diameter.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/se ... 3647?img=5

Thanks all.

Nice piece woodwose, you made that from bicycle chain plates, right? Any suggestions on where to obtain them?

Like this?


Maille and plates V.2.1 detail by Armourkris, on Flickr


Maille and plates V.3.0 by Armourkris, on Flickr


Then yes, I have, and I cant recommend enough that you use riveted rings if you plan on doing the same, at least if you also want to fight in it. mine started out with butted rings, but needed repairs after every time it was fought in, since I swapped it out to riveted it's lost 1 link.

My plates are made from 1 1/4" pallet banding, and i used 9/32 holes? i think, 3 on each side of each plate. thank god for whitney punches.

I made a Krug over 20 years ago.

It was quite comfortable to fight in, but repairs were needed about every other time I went out in it.

I would say that riveted rings are a necessity for durability.

Theres Russian, and I think Polish examples as well.

While it winds up sounding like "gamerspeak", platemail is an accurate descriptive of the type, in my opinion.
I don't use it around the archive, but I object less to it than to the various other artificial D&D armor descriptives, like banded mail or the like.

-Badger-

Funny this should come up now. I have plans in the works and have started getting my ducks in a row to build one in the Russian style. I bought the rings before I realized that round rivet style was more accurate for this than wedge rivet. So now I am building a wedge riveted alternating ring tailored shirt to fit me. When that is done I will be starting this.
I won't be overlapping the plates as in the one above (very nice BTW!) but will be using larger plates made from 20g spring instead. I also have some extras I will be doing that I think will make the shirt pretty darned fabulous when its done! I'm not going to say too much now but I will say I will be acid etching in relief on the plates
I do have a question or two- while I will be using 9mmid flat ring, alternating row round riveted rings, I am considering using 6mm round cross section rings for attaching the plates into the shirt. I feels to me like this would be stronger against shearing at those points and the round wire might move better in the holes but I could be wrong. What do y'all think?
Also, I'm considering if I want to tailor the mail for fit or alter the sizes of the plates to create the fit or if I should use a combination of the two.
I will be using this for SCA combat and for just having because its a pretty awesome style of armour that you just don't see too much of

I don't think there's anything to choose. Likely you'll end up both adjusting the mail and resizing plates -- so six of one and three pair of the other. This is a piece that is made up of numerous or very numerous little bitty pieces -- very difficult to have it go wrong. Undoing anything that turns out to be an error is like undoing errors in mail -- trim out, or move around, enough little bits and the problem gets solved.

Armourkris wrote:
My plates are made from 1 1/4" pallet banding, and i used 9/32 holes? i think, 3 on each side of each plate. thank god for whitney punches.

Very nice piece...

I'm trying to find pallet binding locally but so far no luck. Know of any sources?

I scavenged all of mine, i had good luck at lumber yards and train yards, really anywhere they are shipping large heavy things.

Charles Alexander wrote:

Armourkris wrote:
My plates are made from 1 1/4" pallet banding, and i used 9/32 holes? i think, 3 on each side of each plate. thank god for whitney punches.

Very nice piece...

I'm trying to find pallet binding locally but so far no luck. Know of any sources?

Charles,

For $170 delivered, you can have enough for two or three armors.



http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid= ... &_from=R40

Mac

ouch, the shipping cost is what will kill ya

Shipping's always a fraction of anything you pay for that isn't scrounged or out of a junkyard. Everybody pays shipping, regardless.

Mac, I make the price of that $198.35, delivered.

What's Charles willing to spend to get his materials? Two hundred bucks delivered can buy a very decent helmet.

Konstantin the Red wrote:

Mac, I make the price of that $198.35, delivered.

Just so, K. Math has never been my strong suit.

Konstantin the Red wrote:Two hundred bucks delivered can buy a very decent helmet.

I hope we can both agree to disagree on that one.

Mac

Charles Alexander wrote:ouch, the shipping cost is what will kill ya

Charles,

I seems to me that the 300 to 500 hours you are going to spend on the project makes outlay of $200 on steel a sort of a bargain.

If you can find it locally, so much the better. Have you looked into what you can get from Graingers? That would save the shipping.

If you hope to scavenge your strapping, rather than just buying a coil, you will want to make sure that you have enough of it before you start construction. It would be vexing to get a two thirds of the way through the armor and find that you could not get any more of the same thing you started with.

Mac

Mac wrote: Have you looked into what you can get from Graingers? That would save the shipping.

No...That's no good. They want $245.75 (plus tax) for the roll, and it is only .029" thick. http://www.grainger.com/product/PAC-STR ... =P2IDP2PCP

That Ebay listing just keeps looking better and better.

Mac

Konstantin the Red wrote:Shipping's always a fraction of anything you pay for that isn't scrounged or out of a junkyard. Everybody pays shipping, regardless.

Mac, I make the price of that $198.35, delivered.

What's Charles willing to spend to get his materials? Two hundred bucks delivered can buy a very decent helmet.

Paying to ship something that heavy is unpractical. Much more material than I'll need anyway.

If I come across some banding online, I would pay for an amount that would fit into a flat rate box or two.

Perhaps U-Line? I know they've got numerous distribution centers.
http://www.uline.com/Grp_59/Steel-Strapping

That's an option. Thanks

Er... not very very decent, but presumably better than entry level fixed grill. In mild.

I've been interested in this type of design myself, after making a maille shirt I figure it might be a little less time consuming, and it just looks neat...

Of course, riveted rings probably make it worse... but still like the look of it.

I've been humoring ordering flatrings from the ringlord...

Anyone have some more examples/experience on this topic?

rotccapt wrote:woodwose, is that made from bike chain pieces? that is really cool is it comfortable for the wearer?

Yup, bike chain parts linked together mostly with stainless 1/8" inner diameter mail rings. She says its very comfortable and barely notices it when worn. The top 2/3 or so has a lining of soft garment weight goat leather sewn in for comfort.

The Lost Celt wrote:I've been interested in this type of design myself, after making a maille shirt I figure it might be a little less time consuming, and it just looks neat...

Of course, riveted rings probably make it worse... but still like the look of it.

I've been humoring ordering flatrings from the ringlord...

I wouldn't bet on the total build time being very much shorter. How many seconds per punched hole? How many holes per plate? How many minutes per plate to cut it out? Sculpting any plates of course is its whole 'nother time budget. And there's the learning curve, assembling it all. The one timesaving element you list is the pre-stamped flat rings (solids) from TRL -- if those are what you're thinking of. Still got to edge each and every mail strip, all around it, with riveted links. They are going to outnumber the pre-stamped rings everywhere on that account. Guess you could have fun playing with link sizes; they did that sometimes, using bigger links in the general body of the mail-strip and smaller diameter and thinner wire links to join the plates to the strip.

If you can measure any difference in making-time on your first krug shirt, I think the difference is likely to only be detected by careful record keeping. Valuable datum, though, and an advancement of the general knowledge of the armour-building community, so it's not to be despised. Any sneezing at it -- may be attributed to/blamed on the season's weather.

Grainger does in store pickup and has lots of locations.
http://www.grainger.com/product/PAC-STR ... s_pp=false

The Lost Celt wrote:I've been interested in this type of design myself, after making a maille shirt I figure it might be a little less time consuming, and it just looks neat...

Of course, riveted rings probably make it worse... but still like the look of it.

I've been humoring ordering flatrings from the ringlord...

Anyone have some more examples/experience on this topic?

Most Indo-Persian and Turkish examples of mail and plates uses demi-riveted construction, that is to say half riveted and half solid rings. Consequently, mail strips running between the plates are usually 3 or 5 rows wide; a row of solid rings connected to plates on either side with riveted rings, or a band of two solid rows connected with a riveted row joined to the plates on either side with additional riveted rows. I've seen some photos which made me think the 3-row bands of mail were produced in one shop, and were added to the plates in another.

Konstantin the Red wrote:

The Lost Celt wrote:I've been interested in this type of design myself, after making a maille shirt I figure it might be a little less time consuming, and it just looks neat...

Of course, riveted rings probably make it worse... but still like the look of it.

I've been humoring ordering flatrings from the ringlord...

I wouldn't bet on the total build time being very much shorter. How many seconds per punched hole? How many holes per plate? How many minutes per plate to cut it out? Sculpting any plates of course is its whole 'nother time budget. And there's the learning curve, assembling it all. The one timesaving element you list is the pre-stamped flat rings (solids) from TRL -- if those are what you're thinking of. Still got to edge each and every mail strip, all around it, with riveted links. They are going to outnumber the pre-stamped rings everywhere on that account. Guess you could have fun playing with link sizes; they did that sometimes, using bigger links in the general body of the mail-strip and smaller diameter and thinner wire links to join the plates to the strip.

If you can measure any difference in making-time on your first krug shirt, I think the difference is likely to only be detected by careful record keeping. Valuable datum, though, and an advancement of the general knowledge of the armour-building community, so it's not to be despised. Any sneezing at it -- may be attributed to/blamed on the season's weather.

TRL doesn't make them anymore:/ apparently out of date...

I agree with you, don't get me wrong, I've done maille before but I'm thinking I'm being taken a bit out of context - with a decent punch I think it'd cover the surface area I'm trying to cover, drilling and filing the holes individually is just too much, I would say the rivited maille makes it about the same if not longer but the troubleshooting with the offset of the holes might be problematic also.

I've done lammelar and scale projects that needed to be punched, shaped, and trimmed by hand, I am no stranger to repetition.

Also done a butted maille shirt many years back.. And to be honest the time it took to cover a surface area those bands cover are probably similar.

Sure, I'd certainly consider this a winter project, and if I can make a shirt once I can do it with steel bands and rivets, but if there's anyone who knows more ahead of me let them speak now, I can do a project, not a science experiment...

So yeah, any useful data let me know, tools besides the whitney punch and spacing of the rings/gauge would be helpful, or you could just poo poo me on my lack of knowledge, without offering any new knowledge, your choice...

The Lost Celt wrote: I agree with you, don't get me wrong, I've done maille before but I'm thinking I'm being taken a bit out of context - with a decent punch I think it'd cover the surface area I'm trying to cover, drilling and filing the holes individually is just too much, I would say the rivited maille makes it about the same if not longer but the troubleshooting with the offset of the holes might be problematic also.

Absolutely!

I've done lammelar and scale projects that needed to be punched, shaped, and trimmed by hand, I am no stranger to repetition.

Also done a butted maille shirt many years back.. And to be honest the time it took to cover a surface area those bands cover are probably similar.

Knit one purl two repeat repeat repeat . . .

Sure, I'd certainly consider this a winter project, and if I can make a shirt once I can do it with steel bands and rivets, but if there's anyone who knows more ahead of me let them speak now, I can do a project, not a science experiment...

So yeah, any useful data let me know, tools besides the whitney punch and spacing of the rings/gauge would be helpful, or you could just poo poo me on my lack of knowledge, without offering any new knowledge, your choice...

I think what we haven't said outright is there isn't a lot of new knowledge -- that everybody who tried it found it a very straightforward build. Only thing here I hadn't heard was how necessary riveted links were in it. They might, and to my way of thinking they ought to, consider ornamenting any major plates in some way to display their ability, and to look more like the historical examples.

Really, I think we could all say together, "Oh, poo! -- no impressive tips to give new thought to it! Poo, poo, and Tschah!" and so on. If we all felt that histrionic.

So, for your last point, LC: let's toss a couple suitable diameters into the air and see which one lands a ringer... 10mm ID is right close to 3/8" ID, but such links might be rather large and loose. I'd guess you'd like 8mm or 9mm ID about tops -- so .35" or .355". Say 1mm either side so 8mm ID/10mm OD and 9mm/11mm; you're trying to get rid of that too-broad effect you got from that one batch of almost-right washers. BotH mentions somebody punching some thousands of No. 8 size washers out with the 9/32" punch -- and that all that punching wore the entire tool rather out of spec in the end -- "it was never the same afterwards." A little too rough on a No. 5 Jr -- back in the days when nobody thought of getting a custom order of spacer rings. So that punch's job ought to be to stay on the sheet metal, where you only have hundreds of holes to punch, probably with a smaller punch and die -- less strain on the rest of the tool. If you've never used a metal punch, you'll wonder how you ever got along before. Hope I haven't already said that.

The rings'd go 1mm to 1.6mm thick in any case. 1.6mm is real close to .063". Call 1mm roughly .04". I believe this sketches the dimensional envelope you'd like to stay inside.

If you can find a construction site that is doing large diameter storm sewer pipe, there is always wide banding laying around. Contractors leave it on the ground and when you drive over it it gets caught up in everything! I picked up a few pieces last year to see what I could do with it. As summer rolls around, I may have some you can have. I will keep a look out.

Konstantin the Red wrote:

The Lost Celt wrote: I agree with you, don't get me wrong, I've done maille before but I'm thinking I'm being taken a bit out of context - with a decent punch I think it'd cover the surface area I'm trying to cover, drilling and filing the holes individually is just too much, I would say the rivited maille makes it about the same if not longer but the troubleshooting with the offset of the holes might be problematic also.

Absolutely!

I've done lammelar and scale projects that needed to be punched, shaped, and trimmed by hand, I am no stranger to repetition.

Also done a butted maille shirt many years back.. And to be honest the time it took to cover a surface area those bands cover are probably similar.

Knit one purl two repeat repeat repeat . . .

Sure, I'd certainly consider this a winter project, and if I can make a shirt once I can do it with steel bands and rivets, but if there's anyone who knows more ahead of me let them speak now, I can do a project, not a science experiment...

So yeah, any useful data let me know, tools besides the whitney punch and spacing of the rings/gauge would be helpful, or you could just poo poo me on my lack of knowledge, without offering any new knowledge, your choice...

I think what we haven't said outright is there isn't a lot of new knowledge -- that everybody who tried it found it a very straightforward build. Only thing here I hadn't heard was how necessary riveted links were in it. They might, and to my way of thinking they ought to, consider ornamenting any major plates in some way to display their ability, and to look more like the historical examples.

Really, I think we could all say together, "Oh, poo! -- no impressive tips to give new thought to it! Poo, poo, and Tschah!" and so on. If we all felt that histrionic.

So, for your last point, LC: let's toss a couple suitable diameters into the air and see which one lands a ringer... 10mm ID is right close to 3/8" ID, but such links might be rather large and loose. I'd guess you'd like 8mm or 9mm ID about tops -- so .35" or .355". Say 1mm either side so 8mm ID/10mm OD and 9mm/11mm; you're trying to get rid of that too-broad effect you got from that one batch of almost-right washers. BotH mentions somebody punching some thousands of No. 8 size washers out with the 9/32" punch -- and that all that punching wore the entire tool rather out of spec in the end -- "it was never the same afterwards." A little too rough on a No. 5 Jr -- back in the days when nobody thought of getting a custom order of spacer rings. So that punch's job ought to be to stay on the sheet metal, where you only have hundreds of holes to punch, probably with a smaller punch and die -- less strain on the rest of the tool. If you've never used a metal punch, you'll wonder how you ever got along before. Hope I haven't already said that.

The rings'd go 1mm to 1.6mm thick in any case. 1.6mm is real close to .063". Call 1mm roughly .04". I believe this sketches the dimensional envelope you'd like to stay inside.

FWIW Konstantin I suppose I read it the wrong way and took things out of context, it happens, and I apologize for that.

I'm also the guy who's better at eyeballing than measuring, and it would behoove me to look for guys that are more experienced in thickness/gauge etc before I make the investment. I think part of the reason maille and scales/lamellar appeal to so many is because it is relatively simple to do, just takes time and patience, however from previous experiences I understand that if I was off in my measurements it would be a bit harder to undo my mistakes, and a bit more expensive...

So yeah, I'll admit I don't have a head for measurements point blank, give me an area to work with I can make it happen, only problem is I can't make it myself this time so I'm looking for info, isn't always second nature to some....

Not at all! , really: I figured here was a need expressed, and wanted to try filling it. The whole paragraph there is a trying to express (thumb and finger about so far apart) into some kind of sensible words, the kind of stuff somebody could take notes on for later reference. To quantify it, so's to reproduce at need.

[ETA: just the sort of thing to jot into the shop Dream Notebook, where you sketch ideas and leave useful notes.)

Some are left-brained, some are right-brained. FWTW, I think the both of us are pretty right-brained, each for our respective reasons -- we think spatially, not like with micrometers. WRT that, I might ask poster Meus_Vox if he tends to favor close measurements, or eyeballing. That'll be a touch of thread-drift... release the dragons from Under Weyr... I can only with difficulty resist a stoopit Pern pun.