The Armour Archive

About 10-15 years ago I bought quart bottles of Fiebings Leather Dye and I am just about out now.

I notice now there are different kinds. Acrylic, Leather Dye, and Pro Leather dye. Acrylic is obviously water-based, and the other ones are alcohol based.

I think I remember hearing years ago how they had to change the formulation because of safety or something.

What is the "good stuff" these days? I like the high penetration of the old stuff I am using now.

Steve

Well... depends on what you want to do with it and the effect that you want to achieve. I know that the regular leather dye is fantastic for pipes...

Acryllic will be more like paint than dye. Leather dye will penetrate and keep the grain look. I think Pro Leather dye is a little bit thinner but not 100%.

If you want to dye leather (keep the grain) choose the Leather dye. If you want to paint it, choose the acryllic.

Have you considered angelus dyes?
Mostly Alcohol based except for the jet black.
Penetrates well and have all sorts of color options.
Available in Small 3oz as well as pints, quarts, and gallons sizes.

I've never heard of angelus dyes. Are they better than Fiebings?

I heard back from Feibings. Evidently the "Pro Oil" has oil-based pigments even though it is still alcohol based. Supposed to have more vibrant colors and better UV resistance than the standard leather dye.

I thought the formulation had changed but it's still the same as it ever was. They do now make a low VOC dye for California.

I've always used the oil dye. seems to soak in better/deeper and be more damage tolerant.

Quick run down...

Feibing dye products:

Ethyl alcohol based aniline dye. Basically metal salts dissolved in alcohol. Low viscosity, fast penetration, rapid drying, relatively safe to work with.

Pro Oil dye. Some turpentine like solvents (Stoddard fluid and/or petroleum distillates dissolving aniline pigment. Even coverage, consistent penetration, good colour and saturation stability in daylight or UV intense environments.

Acrylic dyes. Literally acrylic water based paint. Not much better quality than that from arts and craft shops but much better batch to batch colour consistancy. Poor penetration but flexible when cured.

Institutional dye. Water solvent, erratic penetration, frequent settling of non aniline pigments, poor batch to batch consistency, non toxic to consume or inhale. Designed to meet institutional standards of physical safety with less priority to performance. Tandy Leather/The Leather Factory produces a branded dye that emulates these safety characteristics.

Don't quote me on this but these are my observations selling this stuff for 23 years.

Piggybacking on Steve's original questions...

(1)Anyone else notice Tandy online stopped carrying some of the Fiebing's alcohol-based colors (navy blue and dark green for instance)? Do you have another source?
(2)Are the alcohol dyes actually ethanol? Don't know whether it's from methanol, isopropanol, or aldehydes, but the fumes are pretty bad unless you wear a cartridge respirator.
(3)Do any of you know of a brand that comes as powdered pigment that can be mixed with high proof ethanol? This would allow for custom colors and hopefully the fumes wouldn't be as bad.

Thanks,

John

John S. wrote:(2)Are the alcohol dyes actually ethanol?

The Fiebing solvent does seem to be a water-soluble hydrocarbon like isopropyl alcohol. I dilute my Fiebing's dye with rubbing alcohol.

Angelus and feiblings both seam to transfer if not buffed and sealed.
Most of this is rub off of excess pigmant, though some could be carried by water/sweat.

I have had difficulties getting consistent colors with most home mixed pigments useing most of the "DIY" options on google though some fad others just seam inconsistant. I just suck at matching colors between batches.
Another option is useing alcohol based markers like sharpies or copic markers.
Copic has 358 color options and sells ink in reasonable sized containers for small projects.
The dye does poorly for line work.
Vinagroon is good option and fairly easy to make at home if you just need that color.

Vinegaroon is iron black, and it's notably permanent in leather.

Thanks for the Vinegaroon suggestion. I had heard of such dyes but never looked them up before. Looks pretty easy and good.

Steve

I love vinegaroon. These shoes are done that way:

Made a belt back in May or June and dyed it with a vinegaroon mixture and the leather is starting to spiderweb crack across the dermal side and effecting the tensile strenght of the belt.

I have used this stuff for years and this is the first time i have ever had this to happen. I am chalking it up to the shitty leather that Tandy now carries from South America.

Steve, I have had some good results lately with the Eco-flo dyes from Tandy. It took some playing around to get the results I wanted, but so far I am very happy with them.

Probably need more oil after the process.

Steve,

Vinegaroon works especially well for strapping since it is colorfast on both the grain and flesh sides.

Make sure to apply it outside since it smells awful. Buy some steel wool instead of using scrap nails/bolts/etc... since it dissolves in the vinegar quicker and isn't galvanized. Consider using apple cider vinegar to make it instead of white vinegar since it smells better. The color will be dark gray instead of black like James' shoes until you oil/wax it.

-John

Have any of you tried mixing up something like this (not necessarily this brand) http://www.hewitonline.com/Aniline_Leat ... 70-000.htm?

John S. wrote: (2)Are the alcohol dyes actually ethanol? Don't know whether it's from methanol, isopropanol, or aldehydes, but the fumes are pretty bad unless you wear a cartridge respirator.
Thanks,

John

The MSDS says ethanol. The dye solvent is denatured alcohol according to the MSDS. That would be ethanol with a small addition of methanol so it is unsafe to consume.

The pro oil dyes are pretty pungent but I don't find the regular alcohol based dyes that bad. Maybe I've got better ventilation? Or perhaps you are more sensitive to the vapours? Its not unusual.

Maybe I am just more sensitive to the vapors. I had a couple bad experiences back when I first started where I've realized (after the fact) that my ventilation wasn't as good as I thought it was. Once burnt, twice shy.

Another good source for making vinegaroon is machine shop shavings.

As for Feibings, I agree with Kel.- pro dyes are the way to go. That eco dye stuff is water based and a poor substitute for real leather dye. I used vinegaroon once, when I made blacken buff belts- the belts turned a shade of dark green. I think it was a reaction to the tanning chemicals. I ended up using a shoemakers code and stuffed it.

Pro Oil dye. Some turpentine like solvents (Stoddard fluid and/or petroleum distillates dissolving aniline pigment. Even coverage, consistent penetration, good colour and saturation stability in daylight or UV intense environments.

According to Feibings, the Pro Oil Dye is also alcohol-based. They said the pigments are oil based.

Steve

Steve, I'm not in the office so I can't pull the MSDS. The bulk solvent for both regular and pro oil is denatured alcohol. In the case of the pro oil dye there is a petroleum distillate as well to extend drying time. Otherwise it wouldn't be on the MSDS. Fiebings most assuredly will not list the detailed make up of their products, what manufacturer would?

I do recall formulae change over time as jurisdictions like California outlaw certain compounds. Perhaps the Pro Oil formula has changed since the last time I had to look it up for a client? I will try to find a current MSDS for it when I'm in the office Monday. They expire every three years.

redux...

I found an ancient (1992) MSDS for spirit dye
http://www.wardrobesupplies.com/spree/p ... 1332779696
Ethanol is denatured by an addition of methanol so it cannot be consumed safely. (i.e. resold for beverages)

an old MSDS online 2008
http://www.wardrobesupplies.com/spree/p ... 1345149003
Major components : diethylene glycol monoethylene ether, ethanol, isopropanol, xylene, ethyl benzene, ethyl acetate

I am by no means an organic chemist but aside from ethanol, I think the latter are petroleum distillates. Xylene is nasty stuff.

Is that helpful in any way?