Dusting off the cobwebs

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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Tom B. wrote:How much overlap between the gauntlet cuff and the lower cannon is planned?
I would be curious to see the lower cannon's location in your gauntlet sketches, the ones over the tracing of your patrons arm.
I have been meaning to snap a pic for you, Tom.

This is about what I am hoping for.

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This is about the limit of overlap that will work. If the hem of the vambrace interacts with the edge of the wrist plate I think it will be noticeable.

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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Arrakis »

Mac, do you think it would be reasonable to stretch the metal across the metacarpal enough to cover that 1/4"? Or do you think that would thin the metal unacceptably, or just create more problems in terms of alignment of flutes.
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Aussie Yeoman
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Aussie Yeoman »

Here's what may be a naff suggestion:

Why not make a new thumb plate that's 1/4 inch taller rather than a new metacarpal plate that extends 1/4 inch lower?

Also, Mac, is it just a matter of perspective, or is it actually the case that the rear edge of the cuff extends further up the arm on the lateral aspect than it does on the medial?
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Arrakis wrote:Mac, do you think it would be reasonable to stretch the metal across the metacarpal enough to cover that 1/4"? Or do you think that would thin the metal unacceptably, or just create more problems in terms of alignment of flutes.
The metal is really not thick enough (.035") to be able to draw that much out.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

Is it possible to remake the thumb plate instead?
Also maybe move the metacarpal & thumb plate rivet holes a bit closer to the edge.
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Aussie Yeoman wrote:Here's what may be a naff suggestion:

Why not make a new thumb plate that's 1/4 inch taller rather than a new metacarpal plate that extends 1/4 inch lower?
I spent some time last night looking at gothic gauntlets in Goll. My thumb plates are already on the big side of normal, but the metacarpals are on the skimpy side of normal. If I change anything it aught to be the metacarpals.


Aussie Yeoman wrote:Also, Mac, is it just a matter of perspective, or is it actually the case that the rear edge of the cuff extends further up the arm on the lateral aspect than it does on the medial?
The main cuff plate is symmetrical, but there is hinged extension on the thumb side. That makes it look asymmetrical from that view.

Mac
Last edited by Mac on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Aussie Yeoman »

I think Tom and I had the same idea at the same time.

The (selfish) benefit I see to all this is that we, the audience, get to see what Mac does with metacarpal plates.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by wcallen »

A really silly question about the thumb fit.
How similar is your hand to your august patron? It really doesn't matter how it fits you, if it fits him.

How similar is the sword/lance simulator to whatever the august patron plans to be grabbing? That can make a real difference too.

I have often found that what is somewhat uncomfortable to someone can be terrible for someone else, and perfect for someone else. Gauntlets are annoying that way.

Wade
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

Edit: posted before I looked at the next page. In the immortal words of Emily Litella, "Never mind!"

It probably wouldn't work proportionally, but I'd be looking at replacing the base of the thumb. Or trying to weld on an extender, despite how much fun that can be. Easier with a MIG! And some pre and post heating.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

Another question:
Many armourers make molds and cast full sized copies of their clients hands.
You don't seem to have done that.
Do you find that unnecessary?
Are the varoius tracings and measurements you have taken enough to make it superfluous?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

wcallen wrote:A really silly question about the thumb fit.
How similar is your hand to your august patron? It really doesn't matter how it fits you, if it fits him.
Our hands are pretty similar in size, really. His fingers are a bit longer, but not so much as you would expect from our height difference. When I tried the gauntlets on him, the thumbs kept ending up "short", even though they trace out about the same length. I figured it would all work out OK when the gloves were in. That's probably true, but I can't help thinking that getting that thumb plate a little farther from the knuckles will make things a bit nicer.
wcallen wrote:How similar is the sword/lance simulator to whatever the august patron plans to be grabbing? That can make a real difference too.
That's why I am checking with both a skinny hilted sword and a big fat lance. I want to make sure it works comfortably for a range of objects.
wcallen wrote:I have often found that what is somewhat uncomfortable to someone can be terrible for someone else, and perfect for someone else. Gauntlets are annoying that way.
I have seen that sort of thing as well. I think it happens when the armorer's idea of a grip differs significantly from the client's idea of a grip. It' always worst with gauntlets which have rigid thumb bases like hourglasses. I think the best we can do is make the gauntlet exactly like a real one. Then we can be sure that it supports an authentic grip. That's sure to rule out some of the SCAjun favorite sword blows, but that's just reconstructive archeology in action.

Mac
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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Tom B. wrote:Another question:
Many armourers make molds and cast full sized copies of their clients hands.
You don't seem to have done that.
Do you find that unnecessary?
Are the varoius tracings and measurements you have taken enough to make it superfluous?
I have worked with hand casts a number of times and always hated every minute of it. The cast is never in the right position, and the rigidity of the material tends to force one to make the gauntlets too big. There may be a good way to do hand casts for gauntlets, but I have not seen it yet.

In general, hands are more similar to one another than some other body parts. There's a lot less meaningful variation in hands than in lower legs or torsos.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

I know it. There's so little to go on, that it's worth while to look at the questionably stuff as well.... just to have something to think with.
We haven't forgotten Wade's gauntlets, have we? Did I miss that?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
I know it. There's so little to go on, that it's worth while to look at the questionably stuff as well.... just to have something to think with.
We haven't forgotten Wade's gauntlets, have we? Did I miss that?
Great point! :oops:

Remember to click on Wade's photos to open the high resolution versions.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by wcallen »

I do have some gauntlets, don't I?

The main gauntlets are fine. I think well worth including in a general discussion of all of the ones out there.

The thumbs are pretty questionable.... as are the fingers on the finger gauntlets.

Wade
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

It will surprise no one that I decided to replace the metacarpal plates.

Digging out the old templates, I see that when I said the I roughed these out nearly ten years ago, it was nearer than I thought.

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The first step is to trace out the old template, including the holes. These will be the holes I punched on the old ones, and since I will be keeping the geometry of the proximal end of the plate the same, they should work perfectly for the new plate.

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I decided on a sort of two prong attack on the issue. First, I will move the knuckles over toward the little finger side a bit. This will rotate the body of the gauntlet toward the thumb. To do this, I traced the distal end of the template again, but this time a bit to the left.

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Since I am replacing the plates, it's a good time to make any other changes I think they need. That includes a bit more material on the little finger side as well as a bit more on the thumb side.

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Here, I am finding the locations of the knuckle plate pivots by marking through onto the old template.

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I transferred these to the new template by lining them, placing a pencil on the mark....and pulling the old template carefully away. The pencil not sits above the location, and I can make a mark.

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That technique is a bit dodgy, and the result is a "soft" location. That's OK, though, I don't intent to rely on it. I have marked them with question marks. That will be meaningful to me if I ever look at this template again some day.

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The proximal pivot marks are "hard" locations. I need to accurately transfer them to the template, and thence to the steel. I begin by bringing the leather punch (smallest hole) into contact with the cardboard and squeezing just hard enough to make an impression.

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Then I check to see if the impression from the punch is well centered on the traced pencil mark. If it looks good, I bring the punch back and feel for the depression before punching the hole.

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These pivot locations get transferred to the steel and lightly center punched.

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After bending the plates into an approximate shape with a mallet, I started plannishing them up from the backs. There will be a bit of compound curve over most of the plate, and more on the sides.

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The reason that there has to be compound curvature on the sides is to accommodate the fleshy parts of the hand. The bulge on the little finger side is underrepresented in most modern gauntlet work, but the real ones always have room for it.

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They are starting to take shape.

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I am taking care to keep the pair symmetrical. As I mentioned before, my right hand is deformed, so I can't get any meaningful information by trying the right gauntlet on. I have to make the left one correct, and make the right a mirror image.

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As far as I could tell, the pivot holes I marked were going to line up OK, so I punched them and bolted the plates on. Everything fit nicely, so I sketched on some rough lines to begin the shaping of the knuckle end of the plates.

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The initial shaping of the knuckle end of the plate happens over this stake. The metal does not have to go very far, so it can be done cold.

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Making the knuckle plates fit involved finding the places that needed to be depressed and pushing them down. It's an iterative process that takes an hour or so. They are ready to be squared up now, and that happens on this stake.

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After couple hours of fussing and fiddling, I marked and punched the pivots.

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Here's what they looked like after I removed the crude green lines and drew in the real one in black.

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At this point I could finally assemble one up and tape in a glove to see if it was going to work. The results were pretty good. The thumb hinge could sit in about the right place without any feeling of compression. At this point the new plates are officially "keepers" and I can feel free to make them fit the old work more closely.

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The first part of finishing up the big flutes is to set them in over this stake. I use this square little hammer. It's just about perfect for this work.

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The hills are getting sharp....

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....but the valleys are still soft and round.

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They need to be sharpened from the back.

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You can see from the marks, that I used a couple of different hammers.

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The work alternates from front to back until everything is sharp and smooth.

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This brings of to dealing with the discontinuities between the new and old. I made the new stuff have this step intentionally...

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...knowing that I could draw the metal of the lame out with a crosspeen in the back to make the edges match.

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The weirdest part of gothic gauntlets is the way the edges of the plates are sometime cut away to accommodate the the wrist bump.

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This space gets used when the the gauntlet is flexed, and the sliding rivets on ulnar side are compressed.

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This is the amount that needs to be trimmed about from the crotch of the thumb.

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I have marked it on the template as well.

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Likewise, some material is to be trimmed from the little finger side. This is for sword pommel clearance.

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I have the lines for the small flutes inked in, but I will spend some time looking at those pics on Tom's Florian and George page https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing first, in case I see something that makes me change my mind about them.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Aussie Yeoman »

A delight to read as always, Mac.

A couple of things:

If you were making new gauntlets from scratch, would you make the metacarpal to fit the hand, then the knuckle plate to fit it? Or otherwise some permutation of what you've done here? One of the Juris (I think) once said that he makes gauntlets from cuff to fingertip.

You mentioned moving the distal end of the metacarpal toward the little finger, and that this would make the gauntlet track more toward the thumb. How does that work? And did you do this to close the gap rather than extend the medial edge of the metacarpal to get closer to the thumb? I hope I'm being sufficiently clear.

On the over reach of metacarpal beyond lame....why did you draw the lame out rather than grind/trim the metacarpal to make the outline match?

That's probably more than enough pestering for one post.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Aussie Yeoman wrote:
If you were making new gauntlets from scratch, would you make the metacarpal to fit the hand, then the knuckle plate to fit it? Or otherwise some permutation of what you've done here? One of the Juris (I think) once said that he makes gauntlets from cuff to fingertip.
If I were starting gothic gauntlets de novo I would begin at the wrist plate and work in both directions from there.

Now... it turned out that making the metacarpals fit an existing knuckle was not as bad as I had feared it would be. Until yesterday, I woudl have definitely advised making the knuckles to fit the metacarpals. Now I am not so certain.
Aussie Yeoman wrote: You mentioned moving the distal end of the metacarpal toward the little finger, and that this would make the gauntlet track more toward the thumb. How does that work? And did you do this to close the gap rather than extend the medial edge of the metacarpal to get closer to the thumb? I hope I'm being sufficiently clear.
I needed to close the gap between the metacarpal and the thumb. The absolutely best way to do that would have been to make new gauntlets the were just a bit wider, beginning at the wrist. Shifting the relationship between the knuckles and the thumb edge of the metacarpal plate would do the trick, but I did not wont to shift the knuckles that far, lest the gauntlets looked funny. Making the metacarpal plate wider closes the gap, but it changes the shape of the gap. In the end, I split the difference and used a bit of each of those corrections.

Aussie Yeoman wrote:On the over reach of metacarpal beyond lame....why did you draw the lame out rather than grind/trim the metacarpal to make the outline match?
This goes back to the part where the best solution would have been wider gauntlets all around. Drawing that lame out to meet a wider metacarpal was a compromise.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

One of the problems of making an armor from pictures is that you never have every view you need. In this case, we have no views that show what the fluting might look like on the little finger side of the main metacarpal plate. We have a couple that show the thumb side, and we can see from extant gauntlets that it is pretty typical for the two sides to more or less match. That's what I did on the old plates, and I have not seen anything since that suggests I should do anything different.

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The fluting was quite routine. I used the same stake that I used for the vambraces. Something with a smaller radius would have been better, but that worked OK. The only place that calls our attention is how the flutes "stop" against the lengthwise flute spray. For the very end of each flute I used a stake with a corner.

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No matter how careful you are, there will always be some little disturbance at these points that needs to be fixed. It was harder to photograph than fix, but you can sort of see the little bulges that intrude into the otherwise flat facets of the lengthwise flutes.

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So we go back to this stake and gently hammer the angular flutes back into shape. I did a little work from the back with a long crosspeen as well, but I did not get any pics of that.

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That's what they need to look like.

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Note, that I made "full" or "wave" flutes here. Most extant gauntlets that have flutes in these locations use "half" or "step" flutes, but as far as I can make out by reading the highlights and shadows, our statue has full, symmetrical flutes.

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The gauntlets look good, and I think they will fit and function well. I will set them aside for a bit and turn my attention to another part of the armor.

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The right finger and thumb plates are in bags with their templates.....

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...the rest of the templates are pinned together and ready to go back into their folder....

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.... and the old plates have found their way to the land of lost boys.

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Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by RandallMoffett »

As I have said before.... I'd love to loot the recycle bin of your shop! Seriously it would be an armour dumpster divers heaven.

The gaunts have turned out amazing Mac! This unsurprisingly looks like it will be a splendid harness once completed!

RPM
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by bartholomew »

Mac: Just possibly a silly question. I noticed that the last hinge on the thumb of statue has double rivets and yours only a single set. Any reason why?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Ian BB »

Your scrap pile is funny. I make heavy self yew longbows and when I experiment I end up with loads just hanging on the wall. They are worth a small fortune but I can't really sell them to people in their state. As soon as you sell or give it away you lose all control over the item, sad reality of being a perfectionist.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

bartholomew wrote:Mac: Just possibly a silly question. I noticed that the last hinge on the thumb of statue has double rivets and yours only a single set. Any reason why?
That came up back on page 28

It also looks like the right and left gauntlet hinges are represented differently.
As Mac pointed out neither of which really seem correct.
Right hinge has 8 rivets and left has 4:
ImageImage
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

The whole rivet thing is weird, especially on the gauntlets.

On the right thumb, there is a rivet in middle of the knuckle plate like one might expect for a plate mounted on leather. On the left, the rivets are placed like an articulated thumb.

ImageImage

In the end, I decided to do the most usual and typical things for both the hinges and the thumbs.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Alex Baird »

Mac wrote:The Standard-Finger-Taper-Gauge was based empirically on my hand. As far as I can tell, most people's hands are sufficiently similar in that regard that it will work well enough for all normal hands. If I measured a reasonable sample size of hands I would probably revise the taper, but probably not by much.
So, inquiring minds wish to know... what is the angle degree of the taper?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

Looking at many paintings and sculptures over the years has convinced me that the artists often did not have the armour in the studio for as long as it took to complete the project, and as a result were working from memory on the last couple of laps. It is apparent that memory is a poor guide when it comes to armour, especially styles that are as idiosyncratic as German 'Gothic'. When I was designing armour for a movie project, I noticed later that I had put the articulation the wrong way on an Italo-French style gauntlet. If I could do that, what chance does a painter or sculptor, who has little understanding of the engineering of armour, have?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Gerhard von Liebau »

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:If I could do that, what chance does a painter or sculptor, who has little understanding of the engineering of armour, have?
I find it hard to speculate about how much understanding a contemporary painter or sculptor had of the fine details of armor construction, or how much access they had to the raw material that was being translated into another medium. I'll bet money that they knew what they were doing a lot better than we can imagine what they were doing.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Alex Baird wrote:
Mac wrote:The Standard-Finger-Taper-Gauge was based empirically on my hand. As far as I can tell, most people's hands are sufficiently similar in that regard that it will work well enough for all normal hands. If I measured a reasonable sample size of hands I would probably revise the taper, but probably not by much.
So, inquiring minds wish to know... what is the angle degree of the taper?
I was waiting for someone to ask that, so I had an excuse to clean the rust off my angle gauge.

It's about 4 degrees, as near as I can measure. If you are making one, it might be more convenient to begin with the measurements from mine.

My gauge is 1 1/4" (31mm) at the big end, 9/16" (15mm) at the small end, and 9 1/4" (233mm) long.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I have been thrashing around with the question of how to move forward with the helmet for the armor. When I roughed it out years ago, I thought it would be something like this one...

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... but we are finding the long deep tail to strike the shoulders too soon when we tip the helmet back to look under the visor like the way we see in the pictures.

So, now I am thinking of making it a little more "compact" looking, and shortening the tail like this...

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... or this.

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I may even go with an articulated tail.

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I have a Pinterest board devoted to things that seem relevant here https://www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/sallets/

Tom B has been helping me find likely helmets, and Ian L showed me the "trick" to searching in Pinterest. Thank you, Guys!

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by bartholomew »

Love those short tail Sallets!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

They're great if you need something to keep your head facing into the wind. :wink: On the other hand, if you have high shoulders or a forward head carriage, that beautiful point smacks you as soon as you tip the helmet back.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Here's an image that my August Patron sent me years ago. I would put this in that Pinterest page if I could figure out how....

If I remember correctly it's said to be by Friedrich Herlin.

Image

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Gustovic
Archive Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy

Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Gustovic »

You can upload it on your page. On the bottom right corner there is an "upload image". It's right above the button with the question mark.

The caveat is that you can only upload one image at the time.
Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
http://magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest page to almost all existing XIVth century armour
http://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/
Mac
Archive Member
Posts: 9670
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Jeffersonville, PA

Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Thank you, Gustovic! I think St George is in there with the sallets now.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Gustovic
Archive Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy

Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Gustovic »

yep, it's up there =)
Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
http://magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest page to almost all existing XIVth century armour
http://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/
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