Dusting off the cobwebs

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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Johann ColdIron wrote:
Mac wrote: Tomorrow I'll get some fresh silicon sealer from the Home Despot and glue the (now clean) glass back in place. I won't be able to get black, but that's OK.

Mac
You should be able to get black silicone. I've used it on some roof repairs.

Problem is you will have to buy way more than you need for this project, even getting the smallest tube. So I would be tempted to buy clear and use the rest on some house caulking project. It never seems to last once the tube is opened.

Or does it need to be high temp stuff? Then an Auto supply store will have something suitable (and black).
The auto supply house idea is a good one. They probably use black silicone for windshields.

As it is, though, I found that my tube of clear 100% silicone from the Home Despot still has some good stuff left in it. I poked at the nozzle with a wire and squoze the tube until the stuff that came out looked good and smooth. There's a bit of template cardboard in the shop that all covered in it, and it seems to be setting up properly.

So, my plan is to use that to glue the glass back in as soon as I finish typing this. That should make the gauge ready to reassemble by this evening. Black would look a bit nicer, but if I work neatly clear will be OK.

Pics to follow.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by coreythompsonhm »

Black rtv is available at auto parts stores. Usually can be had in a small tube similar to the size of jb weld.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Thank you, Johan and Corey for the information on where to get black silicone. In the end, though, I just used the clear stuff I already had. I suppose this is one of the differences between"restoration" and "repair".... or maybe I'm just lazy.

I had a close look at the dial before putting things back together. The paint is starting to flake from corrosion of the dial pan. It's still legible, and I suppose it will continue to be so for some time to come. There is really nothing I can do to fix it, so I am just careful not to touch it.

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The glass went in OK, and I got the squeeze out cleaned off. There is really not much to show there, but I will point out that I made a little note in the back of the case to remind me which wire went to which terminal. I don't know if mixing up the thermocouple leads will make the gauge try to read the other way or not. When I bought the kiln back at the turn of the Century, I had to replace the thermocouple. I wondered at the time if it made a difference which wire was which. It worked OK the way I first hooked it up, and I did not perform any experiments, so I don't know if I was lucky and ignorant, or just ignorant. In either case, I figured I would just hook it back up the same way and remain ignorant.

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Back in place and wired.

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The panel reinstalled and ready to test.

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As I type, I have the kiln turned on to "low" on all three switches. I will see how the pyrometer gauge agrees with my infra red thermometer in the temperature ranges they share. That will only get me to 1000f, but that's better than nothing.

Mac
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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

The pyrometer is apparently working again. I did a little test yesterday to compare the gauge reading with the infra red thermometer. As a standard, I put a ladle of pure tin in the kiln.

The results for the temperature range around the melting point of tin (450f) is that the pyrometer is reading about 50 degrees low. I don't know what the error might be at other temperatures. Part of me wants to figure it out and get the pyrometer calibrated, and part of me says to just presume that any error is already part of my procedure and just get on with it.

I suppose the later is what I should do, really. If "1525f" has worked as an austinitizing temperature in the past, it does not really matter for my purposes if that is really 1550f.... I don't really want to reinvent my protocol in the middle of a project. Recalibration can be a project for another day.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Johann ColdIron »

Glad to help in any way I can Mac. I'm learning a bunch from this thread, especially when it comes to heat treating. Thanks for giving us a seat at the work table so we can watch.
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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I started dealing with my new stainless drum today. The first thing I did was remove the vent plug so that it would stop making an unexpected Bong! whenever it heated up or cooled down. That was funny at first, but got old rather quickly. I did not have the special wrench, but this big old screwdriver was able to get it out OK.

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I figure that I want the tank to be approximately 29" tall.

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One of the corrugations ends at 29 1/8", and it's pretty convenient to already have a line to follow. I'll use the next line down to start the hem.

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So far as I can figure, the new drum dolly I just ordered will lift the drum about 4" off the ground. I have done a quick reality check by setting the new drum up on 4" worth of blocks. The height should compare favorably with the old tank.

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I have pretty much never worked stainless, so I'm not sure what sorts of trouble to expect. The 1/8" drill went in nicely, and the follow up with 1/4" went OK as well.

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The last time I cut stainless, I was shocked and irritated by how fast it ruined saw blades. I set the saw up with a 32 tooth blade because I have a lot of them and don't like them much.

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The cutting went smoothly enough at first, and I was beginning to think that I unjustly despised this material......

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... but about 3/4 of the way around, the blade started glowing and all the teeth got dull. That's more like I remember.

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So I took the blade out and cut 1/2" of the shank so I could use the fresh teeth near the tip. That and some careful cutting got the job done.

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The drum is too heavy to just hold up to the stake with one hand, so I set up a platform to bring it to the right height.

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By the time I got that done, it was too late in the evening to start what I expect to be a very loud process. So, in deference to my neighbors, I have set it aside till tomorrow.

Mac
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Sean Powell
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Sean Powell »

Time to put the barrel on a lazy susan and mount your OA torch at a fixed height just to the right so you can just turn to heat, turn to hammer and if you get the timing right run it like an assembly line.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Ya know... I thought about setting it up on a turntable, but it seemed like too much trouble.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

The first step was to turn the edge out against the stake. This was done by heating and hammering a few inches at a time.

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I did it is two passes. In retrospect, I could have done it on one pass, but I did not know what to expect out of the material.

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For the next step I pulled out the chevalet d'etabli, which as I understand it is French for "bench horsey". This is a tool that I simply Had-To-Have back at the second Lynch sale. I did not know exactly what I would do with it, but it seemed like madness to not buy one. I believe this is the first time I have ever done anything with it.

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I made a hand held "buck" to continue the hem over.

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This is what it all looked like just before the end of the first pass over the buck.

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I did a second pass to make sure all the wrinkles were hammered out...

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... and then closed the hem up. It's not a hem I can really be proud of, but it will serve its purpose just fine.

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I am pleased to see that the aluminum lid that Rob Mazza made for my old tank will fit the new one.

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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Sean Powell »

Mac wrote: ... and then closed the hem up. It's not a hem I can really be proud of, but it will serve its purpose just fine.

Mac
Most people here would have bent 1/4" round into a loop and stitch-welded it in place then made a pass with an angle grinder to reduce any dangerous burrs to only an inconvenience. The fact that you cut and rolled the edge of your quench-tank makes it miles beyond what any of us would attempt even if you aren't proud of it.

Sean
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Sean Powell wrote:
Most people here would have bent 1/4" round into a loop and stitch-welded it in place then made a pass with an angle grinder to reduce any dangerous burrs to only an inconvenience.

Sean
Seriously?! Sometimes I wonder just how far out of touch I really am.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by wcallen »

Other alternatives some people would have used:

Or just cut the top off and left it alone.

Or (if you had the right shop) dug a hole and lowered the bottom until the top was at the right height and called it done. That works really well with a dirt floor.

Or... not harden or temper the armour at all.

:)

But it is fun to watch the mind of Mac at work.

Wade
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Otto von Teich »

He has a clever mind indeed! And hes a perfectionist. That's both a blessing and a curse! LOL
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tableau »

That hem looks better than any hem I've done in mild. You gotta live up to your own standards I guess.
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Sean Powell
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Sean Powell »

Mac wrote:
Sean Powell wrote:
Most people here would have bent 1/4" round into a loop and stitch-welded it in place then made a pass with an angle grinder to reduce any dangerous burrs to only an inconvenience.

Sean
Seriously?! Sometimes I wonder just how far out of touch I really am.

Mac
Well, to be honest I didn't poll a group of armorers to get a statistical sample but most armorers have 1/4" mild round kicking around for bar grills (hell, even I have some and I can't weld) and anyone with a buzz-box could rough bend a loop over the horn tack in in place twice and then flex it in and out as necessary to line up and walk it around the top of the drum... Assuming as Wade said they bothered to do anything. It's a fabricator mentality rather than a shaper but your mind quite clearly sees how to shape things better than most while the rest of us dish 2 helmet halves, weld the seam and call it close enough.

Sean
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

It was like Christmas today, but all the packages were on the front porch. I got my new drum dolly, a used drum heater, and a part for my lathe.

This is starting to come together.

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I may move the heater up to the space between the chines. I was thinking that low was better than high in terms of convection, but I did not want to put it on the corrugations. Now that I look at it, though, it looks sort of weird down there.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by marcos.blues »

Mac friend,
That to me is a documentary that I am following closely.
Thank you in advance for the teachings
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by The Iron Dwarf »

I would be very happy if I could roll an edge like that, great work Mac
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want to join ebid? its free to join as a buyer
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

A while back, I showed a pic of the back of my pyrometer gauge, whereon I had penciled the colors of the thermocuouple leads.

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Well.... It turns out that Tom B. knows something about thermocouples and knew damn well that I had the leads hooked up wrong. It seems that in American "K type" thermocouples, the red wire is always negative. Since it had been hooked up this way for nearly 15 years, and all of my heat treating experience in that time had been based on numbers from this pyrometer, I was less than delighted to contemplate the repercussions of this revelation.

Although there was a strong temptation to leave things as they were, I decided that willful ignorance is never the correct path.

So... I opened things back up to try to get to the bottom of it all. I turns out that "K" thermocouples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple#Type_K are made of the alloys Alumel and Chromel. Of these two alloys (both of which sound like they are probably Superman's uncles, or perhaps lesser known Archangles) only the Alumel is magnetic. This gave me a way to determine which of the two legs of the probe was which.

I used a rare earth magnet to figure it out. Here we see that the probe leg on the left is Alumel. The same test showed that the red wire was also Alumel. Now.. thermocouples being what they are, the Alumel probe leg should be attached to the Alumel lead wire, and vice versa for the Chromel side. I had wired the leads up backward at this junction block, as well as at the meter!

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My first thought was to get the leads hooked up correctly and start in on a series of experimental hardenings to reestablish my protocol. This was madness, of course. In a bit, I realized that I needed to leave them like they were and run a test firing with another pyrometer so that I could compare the temperatures and get a sense of how far off my numbers had been. I knew "how I was wrong" and now I needed to find out "how wrong I was".

Dave Rylak kindly put his spare pyrometer in the mail and I had that in hand the next day. Thank you, Dave!

The first four columns in this chart show the temperature as displayed on Dave's digital pyrometer, the display on my (incorrectly wired) analog pyrometer, the time of the measurement, and finally the amount high or low that my pyrometer read.

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The results were somewhat surprising. At room temperature, my pyro was more or less correct, but it soon came to read low. By the middle of the tempering range it was about 50°f low. This error gradually diminished as the temperature increased, until at about 900°f I was getting good readings. Above than that, it began to read high. The error increased gradually until it was 50°f or more too high in the austinitizing range. I had assumed 15 years ago, that if I was getting "plausible" temperature numbers, than I must have the thing hooked up correctly. That turns out not to be true.

Having found out the extent of the terrible truth; I rewired my leads at the junction block and the gauge, and ran another test firing. I made a couple of recallibrations to get the analog gauge to agree with the digital one, and made sure they were pretty similar at around 1500°f. For a while it looked like "the man with two pyrometers never knows what temperature it is", but I seem to have that straightened out. The two gauges now more or less agree from 1750°f down to about 100°f. That's were the kiln is now. If they continue to agree at room temperature, so much the better... but that does not really matter. The important thing is that I can now trust my pyrometer to be within a few degrees of the truth across the range useful range.

Now.... Now, I can get on with the hardening experiments.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Jeremy.G »

Wow. It sometimes takes a lot of work to get to the "actual" work. . . ;)
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

...Alumel and Chromel. Of these two alloys (both of which sound like they are probably Superman's uncles, or perhaps lesser known Archangles)
:lol:

I think if I didn't have to deal with prep time, I could get three times as much done!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

Glad to hear you got that sorted out.
I hope that the heat treating tests go smoothly.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by wcallen »

Jeremy.G wrote:Wow. It sometimes takes a lot of work to get to the "actual" work. . . ;)
Since I expect most people would think taking a flat piece of metal and making something that is the right shape from it is the "actual" work, yes. That is very little of the time most people spend making a piece of armour.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Chris Gilman »

Chromel R was the alloy woven into fabric for the Apollo space suit high wear areas. Boots, gloves and a section on the back of the suit (where the life support would rub)
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Jeremy.G »

I totally agree Wade.

Today, I cut angle iron, and re-lined my forge.
Later, I will weld the iron into a form patterned after stake tool tapers.
Then, I'll use that form to help finish the bottom of a stake.
Then, I'll weld a steel ball on top of that stake.

Then (finally), I can use that tool to start working on my helmet...
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I bought a sort of bilge pump at the Home despot to transfer by brew to the new tank.

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A few layers of cheesecloth attached to the end of the discharge hose with a zip tie filtered out the worst of the guck.

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There was a bit of a shortfall, in part because the new tank is deeper than the old one...

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... so I made up a bit more solution to bring the level up.

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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Sean Powell »

Have you made a decision about moving the heating band up or not? I would think that the flat surface would contact more of the heating element and give you better heat transfer. A quick stir should get any cool liquid on the bottom that isn't mixed by convection back into the mix.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I have the quench tank heating right now. I started this morning with the heater down near the bottom of the tank, but then I moved up up for a while.

After an hour of so, I found that the lower part of the tank felt dramatically cooler than the part above the heater. Clearly, convection was not happening vigorously enough to homogenize the temperature, so I moved the heater back down to the bottom. In either position, the heater is on a part of the drum where there are no corrugations to interfere with heat conduction.

I will report on that later.

Mac
Last edited by Mac on Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

The plan for today is to try hardening some scrap pieces to determine what the lowest usable austinitizing temperature is. I have been rereading my notes from around the turn of the century and am surprised at the low temperatures I was using. My recollection was about temperatures between 1525°f and 1550°f, but it looks like I was mostly using temperatures between 1450°f and 1475°f. Memory is such a frail thing.

Those temperatures are way below what is recommended "in the books", but in the never ending struggle against warpage and cracking, the lowest temperature that produces adequate hardness is the way to go.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Andrew Bodley »

Regarding the heat belt. In my home brew I occasionally us a heat belt to control the brew temperature. The lower the belly is fitted the hotter the brew becomes. I think the area above the belt is heated so the lower I'd placed then there is more area above to be heated.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

Mac wrote:My recollection was about temperatures between 1525°f and 1550°f, but it looks like I was mostly using temperatures between 1450°f and 1475°f.

Mac
Are those numbers as read by your old pryometer setup or adjusted to what now think they really were?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Andrew Bodley wrote:Regarding the heat belt. In my home brew I occasionally us a heat belt to control the brew temperature. The lower the belly is fitted the hotter the brew becomes. I think the area above the belt is heated so the lower I'd placed then there is more area above to be heated.
Andrew
I have moved the heater down to the bottom of the drum, and the results seem better. In this case "better" is warmer overall. I got the impression that with the heater in the middle of the drum, that convection was not sufficient to bring heat heat the bottom. It looked like I could either move the heater down, or stir the tank periodically. Moving the heater is easier and there is no "drag out" to be considered.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Tom B. wrote:
Mac wrote:My recollection was about temperatures between 1525°f and 1550°f, but it looks like I was mostly using temperatures between 1450°f and 1475°f.

Mac
Are those numbers as read by your old pryometer setup or adjusted to what now think they really were?
Some of the numbers in my notebook relate to the kiln I used to use in Ithaca, and some to my current kiln. Interestingly, I seem to have suspected that there was some sort of error and checked it against another pyrometer back in 2001. At the time, I adjusted things for the best compromise, and then promptly forgot about it. Like I said earlier; memory is a fragile thing. Reading my notes reminds me of things I forgot fifteen years ago, and they take on a sort of half remembered quality. I only wish I could read all the words in my notebooks. My writing is so bad that it's not really possible.

It looks like a seldom austinitized above about 1525°f... which translates to something more like 1475°f. I seem to have been using 1525°f for thin parts that held their shape well (eg. gauntlets). I did heavier items at a slightly lower temperature, because they would not cool so rapidly on their way to the quench tank.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I spent some more time looking at my notebooks this evening. It's very strange. From '98 to '03, I was doing experiments with lower austinitizing temperatures, and I seem to have been using temps in the mid 1400s. Some time around '05, I suddenly shifted to austinitizing at 1525°f (which was probably really more like 1480). I don't know why I went to a higher temperature. There is nothing in my notes to indicate that the lower temperatures were not working. I'll look at it again tomorrow....

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Signo
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Posts: 4963
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Italy
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Signo »

Maybe you changed material to work with?
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