The Armour Archive

R.Kohlstruck wrote: On genuine examples i have seen both types, chiseled and cutted.

I think the chiseled work is much less common than the cut work because it is not a versatile.

R.Kohlstruck wrote:The best result i had now with using the edge of a small handsaw. But for the flutings on the kneewings i think a riffler file will do a good job.

I have gone down this path as well.

Here is a pic of the hacksaw blade that I have modified for this sort of work. I ground the sides until all the tooth set was all but gone. It works well on highly curved surfaces like helmets, but not on things like vambrace or knee wing flutes.



The other down side is that it takes two hands to use the saw and another two to hold the work.

For flat surfaces like wings, I wonder if some sort of backsaw with a curved blade would work. Unfortunately, no one seems to make a thing like that, so we're on our own and have to make one to find out.

R.Kohlstruck wrote:You can have a look here: https://www.pinterest.com/kohlstruck/gothic-gauntlets/

Nice!

Mac

Mac, I'm sorry I never got back to you about the attempt to take photos of the bottoms of the incised lines on the real stuff, but there were a couple of difficult to resolve issues. Most of the time the bottoms of the lines have a fine thick layer of centuries old black oxide in them, so the tool marks cannot be seen. Sometimes heavily acid cleaned pieces leave the bottoms almost visible, but the acid has affected the texture of the metal the same way it affects everything else.

I work on real and Victorian 'Maximilian' stuff all the time, and it is interesting to see the ways that were used by different makers to copy various features of the real stuff. Some did use small chisels, and it looks like it up very close. Some did standard engraving, which looks very close but does not have the same sort of mistakes as the real thing, but one piece I have on hand... someone knew how to make lines that are dam' near identical to the real thing.

Mac

I would try a smaller wheel to cut lines. Almost the size of the dremel discs. That should make the errors less smudgy.

R.Kohlstruck wrote:@mac: most gothic parts only have the lines on one side of the fluting, mostliy on the outside of the curve to give them a looking like a step. Double lines are common with maximilian style flutings. Thats my experience.

My observations concur with yours. I was just making the most of my scrap piece by putting lines on both sides for practice. ( I wondered if anyone would "catch me" on that )

Mac

If we could get a micrograph of the area around one of the cuts near the end, we could see if the grain structure has been changed in ways that indicate a material-removed method or a material-compressed/moved method. The deformation of the grains cause by something like chisel tracing should be visibly distinct from the shearing produced by a technique like engraving with a graver. At least, we should be able to see some differences.

Anyone currently have access to a reasonably strong microscope?

Xtracted wrote:Mac

I would try a smaller wheel to cut lines. Almost the size of the dremel discs. That should make the errors less smudgy.

The dremel disc has been my "go to" in the past for small jobs. They have the same wandering and slipping problem as the big disc, but perhaps even more so. The biggest issue with the dremel is ergonomics. It's just plane hard to draw a line with one. If the disc were in the same plane as the axis of the tool, it would be a lot easier.

There are gunstock checkering tools that look like they might work, but they are crazy expensive. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/250043 ... ering-head

Mac

Arrakis wrote:If we could get a micrograph of the area around one of the cuts near the end, we could see if the grain structure has been changed in ways that indicate a material-removed method or a material-compressed/moved method. The deformation of the grains cause by something like chisel tracing should be visibly distinct from the shearing produced by a technique like engraving with a graver. At least, we should be able to see some differences.

Anyone currently have access to a reasonably strong microscope?

The examples I have looked at under magnification show scratches in the bottoms of the lines. The scratches are of varying lengths, and are not quite parallel or even.

That rules out a graver. A graver would produce a smooth cut. If the tool had scratches from the sharpening process, it would leave long parallel grooves in the cut. That's not what we see.

My impression from what I have seen is that the lines were cut with a tool having multiple cutting edges, and that any given edge was only in contact for a short distance. A saw or file makes marks like that, as does an abrasive.

Mac

A horizontally mounted disc driven by a small chain or belt should be pretty easy to make. Sort of a horizontal pizza slizer with a belt connected to a motor.

I feel that it would be easier to explain what I mean with a drawing..

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:...but one piece I have on hand... someone knew how to make lines that are dam' near identical to the real thing.

Some of those fakers were/are crafty bastards indeed!

Mac

Xtracted wrote:A horizontally mounted disc driven by a small chain or belt should be pretty easy to make. Sort of a horizontal pizza slizer with a belt connected to a motor.

Actually, why not simply lock the Dremel upright in a vice and move the work around?

If we could lay hands of this one for a few minutes we could figure out how much curvature the cutting tool had by that "bridge" between the end of the cut and the overcut on the step. You could just cut a piece of acetate sheet until it matched up, and make a guess from that.



Mac

Arrakis wrote:

Xtracted wrote:A horizontally mounted disc driven by a small chain or belt should be pretty easy to make. Sort of a horizontal pizza slizer with a belt connected to a motor.

Actually, why not simply lock the Dremel upright in a vice and move the work around?

That's sort of where I'm at here....



...but better, I think.

Mac

This one shows the sort of tool marks I was describing above.



And here we see how the scratches walk out a bit in the curve.



Mac

The more I look at these pics, the more I wonder if I'm not closer to the right thing than I thought.

The difference between this..



....and this...



...may be more about operator skill than about the tool. Perhaps if you put a guy on my tool for 12 hours a day he would be doing pretty good work in a few weeks. After a couple of years of doing munitions grade stuff he might be good enough cut lines on nice work.

Mac

http://pinterest.com/pin/AyW7pwAQQGsFRJP-pTEAAAA/?s=3

This is my idea for a simple tool. I would try a wheel somewhere between 1.5 - 2 inches in diameter. With a foot operated support I believe you could become pretty skilled pretty fast. Sitting down and operating it like a sewing machine. It would probably cause extended endings of the lines since the wheel would make it hard to see exactly when to stop a line.

Thats what i meaned, i think the tool was like the disk mac is using, maybe in different sizes. Thats identicall with the tools glas-engravers are using for example. The move the work piece along the tool. After some days and weeks doing nothing else it wold be quiet easy. The same like start making fine flutings or so for the first time.

I started a new threat for this theme, so if you want.

So, this would be a stationary machine that you brought the work up to? ( I have taken the liberty to hot link to your sketch)



That certainly saves a lot of trouble in making things tiny and light. The 2" circular saw blades are already an item of commerce.



Mac

That setup could certainly work. Back when I wove more mail, I used a tabletop machine that was built in the same way to saw-cut jump rings. It used those little 2" blades, too. Since it was for a different purpose, my guides were either a tube to feed coils through, or an adjustable bed to control the depth of the cut.

KI,

How well do you thing the miniature circular saw blades would do on tempered spring?

Mac

Arrakis wrote: Actually, why not simply lock the Dremel upright in a vice and move the work around?

Which reminds me...

I tried clamping one of these guys down to the bench and bringing the work to it.



It cut, but was very difficult to control.

Mac

Yes, a stationary machine where you can rest the armour piece on a support and pull or push it to make the cuts. I believe cutting tempered rings would be a lot worse for the discs then cutting lines in armour. Cutting trough something always eats angle grinder discs while cutting along the surface is a lot kinder.

Mac wrote:KI,

How well do you thing the miniature circular saw blades would do on tempered spring?

Mac

Well, it took a while to get a 2' long coil of 14 gauge mild rings cut. It's been several years now, but I believe it would take somewhere around 15 minutes to cut all of them.

One blade would last for quite a while, especially with oil and reasonable pressure. Usually got five blades to a pack, cost maybe a buck a blade.

I think they would work just fine for scoring the tempered spring. The teeth hold up as long as you don't let it get too hot. In fact, you would probably be less likely to marr your work, since these blades will cut slower than your big abrasive disk.

I've also tried using the right angle attachment for the dremel tool, and bringing the tool to the work.



It's an ergonomic disaster. I even tried shortening the cut off wheel mandrel by half an inch to bring the disc closer to the center line of the tool. If was still a goatfuck difficult thing to use.

Mac

Mac, I'm curious as to the piece that allowed you to have a good look at the bottoms of the grooves. How did that come about?

Also; these cuisses at the RA in Leeds do not have sliders in the knees. They rely on a combination of varying the rotational axes of the lames (off parallel to a large degree), loose rivets, and not being as tight around the knees of the wearer as the German ones we have been looking at.

About the dremel sawblades i think they ar to small and to fast. Tomorrow i will tri to build a axis with a hss disk ant try out some things. HSS would do the job on tempered steel.
I will document my results and make photos. In Germany it's now 21.00 so i go home and eat something

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:Mac, I'm curious as to the piece that allowed you to have a good look at the bottoms of the grooves. How did that come about?

A customer of mine sent me a couple of fragments of Maximilian stuff that he had purchased. He hoped that I would incorporate them into new work. I did not thing much of the idea for a number of reasons, and sent them back to him after examining them closely. The items in question were a kneecop and most of a gauntlet. From what he said and what I could see, the history of the pieces included Allied bombing and interment under rubble followed by excavation and acid cleaning. I was pretty confident that I was seeing original tool marks in the lines.

Quite as an aside. The surviving rivets seemed to be original, and all of them were hollow domes. I found that I could get a thin probe up into the the undersides of heads. This has caused me to rethink domeheads in a major way.

Mac

R.Kohlstruck wrote:About the dremel sawblades i think they ar to small and to fast. Tomorrow i will tri to build a axis with a hss disk ant try out some things. HSS would do the job on tempered steel.
I will document my results and make photos. In Germany it's now 21.00 so i go home and eat something

Excellent! I look forward to seeing it!

Good night!

Mac

Here is how I imagine operating my contrapton.

http://pinterest.com/pin/A5W9pwAQQGsFKAhgDDAAAAA/?s=3

Sorry, can't insert the image directly from my phone..

Xtracted wrote:Here is how I imagine operating my contrapton.

http://pinterest.com/pin/A5W9pwAQQGsFKAhgDDAAAAA/?s=3

Sorry, can't insert the image directly from my phone..

I'll do that then.



I wonder if the support underneath is necessary. I've been just holding the work up to the wheel and (with the abrasive one anyway) it's easy to apply enough pressure. Indeed, perhaps too easy.

Mac

The support would be used for larger pieces like breastplates, backplates, cuisses and such. Smaller pieces could be free handed. Perhaps the support could be a chisel or similar that runs in the back of the flute, guiding the piece. Occasionally you would slip, creating errors like on the original pieces.

Mac wrote:If we could lay hands of this one for a few minutes we could figure out how much curvature the cutting tool had by that "bridge" between the end of the cut and the overcut on the step. You could just cut a piece of acetate sheet until it matched up, and make a guess from that.



Mac

Yea, maybe someone with access to that thing should do something to help the discussion. Hmm. Who do we know who could get his hands on that breastplate?

I will try to remember to do something over Christmas. I get more time off then. Feel free to pester me some between now and the new year.

Wade

Wade,

I guess I lost track of the part where that was a pic of something in your collection

Mac

Mac wrote:

Arrakis wrote:

Xtracted wrote:A horizontally mounted disc driven by a small chain or belt should be pretty easy to make. Sort of a horizontal pizza slizer with a belt connected to a motor.

Actually, why not simply lock the Dremel upright in a vice and move the work around?

That's sort of where I'm at here....



...but better, I think.

Mac

About 10 years ago I visited a small Swarovski Crystal store front somewhere in Nova Scotia [Halifax or St. John? I can't recall which]. You could stand in one room and watch a few guys grinding away at glass pieces to make all the detailed surface work. It clearly wasn't their main factory, just a demo room with maybe 6 grinding stations... but one guy had a set up that looked a lot like what you pictured here [with a water drip, being glass] and he was cross hatching very thin lines all over a bowl's outside surface. He was moving FAST and you could see the last few hours work stacked in front of the window before within reach of the next guy for finer polishing... they were TINY lines. I suspect he's proof you're right about spending enough time to get really fast and precise.

He was working with a padded bar behind his lower back/rear, not a seat, but a fixed thing he could brace against while pushing the work against the wheel in front of him.

R.Kohlstruck wrote:Thats what i meaned, i think the tool was like the disk mac is using, maybe in different sizes. Thats identicall with the tools glas-engravers are using for example. The move the work piece along the tool. After some days and weeks doing nothing else it wold be quiet easy. The same like start making fine flutings or so for the first time.

I started a new threat for this theme, so if you want.

Whoops, I should have read further before saying the same thing as R.Kohlstruck

I've got some micrographs from Wade's lance arrêt. A-237. There is a small raised rib with roping, edged with two incised lines which appeared to me to have traces of gilding. I'm not positive of the exact area which the micrograph was taken , but it was around one of those ribs. Probably on the hinge area, perhaps Tom B. would remember?

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... -front.jpg