The Armour Archive

I have buckles made up and bolted on as a test....



....But you may well be right, Tom. Hooks may be a better solution here.

I'll make up a pair and see if I like them better.

Mac

I think a pair of hooks would look and function better, not just 1 IMO.

Today, I experimented a bit with hooks to close the mail skirt. Here are two hooks from Churburg.



...and here are two of the prototype hooks I built. The upper one is like the first one from Churburg (except that I turned the loop the wrong way ), and the lower one is my adaptation of the Churburg hooks. I thought I might use a heart to tie in with the piercing on the elbows and gauntlets.



Mac

I like the bottom hook better (the heart) - but I like either hook better than the buckle.

I made up four of the heart shaped hooks out of brass this evening. I used .040". That's a bit thinner than my prototype in steel, but the next heavier bit of sheet brass I had was .050", and that seemed a bit heavy.



Here is the side that was a bit gappy the other day. It turned out that in addition to the posture of the stand, there were a couple of asymmetries. I added a few rings to the edge, and put expansion ring about half way up from between the first two dags. That necessitated ripping off the first dag and moving it over one ring. I think the two sides behave pretty similarly now.



Tomorrow I will gild these and install them for real. Then I can assemble a bit more on the fauld and cullet.

Mac

Ckanite wrote:I think a pair of hooks would look and function better, not just 1 IMO.

Galileo wrote:I like the bottom hook better (the heart) - but I like either hook better than the buckle.

I answer with hearing and obeying.

Mac

Shouldn't there be an overlap in the maille or will it be covered by the dangly bits?

I knew it! I told myself that anybody who didn't like the way a simple greave pin didn't sit correctly would NEVER let that opening stay that way it was! Bravo......you did exactly what I thought you would do. That's why you're Mac!

I know this defeats the good looks of the hooks you built, but if you put the hook in the right direction, according to the picture you posted, and then put the body of the hook underneath the mail, it would then be protected from sword strikes and you could have overlap of the mail.

Xtracted wrote:Shouldn't there be an overlap in the maille or will it be covered by the dangly bits?

Kerry Pratt wrote:I know this defeats the good looks of the hooks you built, but if you put the hook in the right direction, according to the picture you posted, and then put the body of the hook underneath the mail, it would then be protected from sword strikes and you could have overlap of the mail.

The side tassets will cover the joint in the mail.

It's strangely difficult to get mail to overlap. The mail that is beyond the attachment points (be they hook points of strap/buckle rivets) just wants to sag and flop. This can be overcome to some degree by lining the mail or even through stiffening the edge by sewing it to a leather of fabric band. Also, our modern Indian mail is just plane floppier than most of the real stuff. That goes especially for the dense mail that one finds on collars.

Mac

bartholomew wrote:I knew it! I told myself that anybody who didn't like the way a simple greave pin didn't sit correctly would NEVER let that opening stay that way it was! Bravo......you did exactly what I thought you would do. That's why you're Mac!

These are just two of the many ways that the better armorers avoid getting paid enough. Fixing our mistakes and dealing with unexpected troubles just aren't in our price calculations.

Mac

Mac: I can tell you from years of experience it happens to ALL businesses, mine included. As it was once told to me, one should never strike out every trip to the plate, nor does one hit a home run every time either. But with enough bunts, singles and a few timely placed doubles, and a few nice triples you will usually win the game!

bartholomew wrote:Mac: I can tell you from years of experience it happens to ALL businesses, mine included. As it was once told to me, one should never strike out every trip to the plate, nor does one hit a home run every time either. But with enough bunts, singles and a few timely placed doubles, and a few nice triples you will usually win the game!

Happened to me last year. Almost made me close up shop and it's one of the main reasons I have a part time job again. Sometimes life just get's in the way.

Businessman
Craftsman
Engineer
Artist
Poet
Mathematician
Architect
Philosopher
Scientist



All of these people belong to Homo sapiens, and all are part of an interbreeding population; but they all think differently. Their brains are all wired differently, and that drives them to do what they do. The mind of any one is inexplicable to the mind of any other.

Mac

3 on that list are completely alien in thought to me, I've cross trained at 2 and I'm working to become more like 3 of those. Life is a difficult and bumpy journey Mac and boy oh boy is it full of missteps.

Mac wrote:Businessman
Craftsman
Engineer
Artist
Poet
Mathematician
Architect
Philosopher
Scientist

All of these people belong to Homo sapiens, and all are part of an interbreeding population; but they all think differently. Their brains are all wired differently, and that drives them to do what they do. The mind of any one is inexplicable to the mind of any other.

Mac

That is a gross and rather unfair oversimplification, depending on who you're talking to...

Gerhard von Liebau wrote: That is a gross and rather unfair oversimplification, depending on who you're talking to...

Of course it is, but you understand what I mean. To say it subtly, fairly, and elaborately would take many pages. I hope you are not offended.

Mac

I made up the 1" strap cover plates for the tasset straps today. It's the same procedure as for making the 3/4" plates.



The small difference is that I made up a cheesy little plate to cover the checkering on the vise jaw. This saved me a certain amount of clean up work. Old dog, new trick.



The six straps that go on the fauld were cut with a template and scissors. I thought about trying to make up a "clicker" to cut them out with, but it just did not seem worth the trouble for this number. If there were 50 of them, that would be another thing.



The plates are all cleaned up, gilt and installed over the straps.



Tomorrow, I need to make up some fancy flat-head rivets. I have a tool for that if I can find it.

Mac

A few months ago, I painted myself into a corner. The statue shows the side tassets attached with two straps; one on the fauld and the other on the cullet. Each of those straps has two rivets. This arrangement will keep the straps from rotating. That's fine on the front tassets, but I felt that the side tassets needed to be able to accommodate some adjustment in the overlap of the fauld and cullet. I decided that I would mount the fauld strap as per the statue and the cullet strap on a single rivet so that it can move a bit if it needs to.

The plan had been to cover the end of the strap with a plate, like the others, but only secure it with one rivet. That was all well and good till I remade the tassets, and altered the attachment points. Since the pivot point for the articulation between cullet 2 and cullet 3 was pretty much set, I ended up with an interference problem. A strap plate like any of the others on the statue would foul the pivot.



The best way around this was to make the top of the strap round and secure it with a large headed rivet and no plate. The straps of the armors in Curtatone di Mantova are held on with decorated flat head rivets.... and it just so happens that I have a punch to make them.



The other place where those rivets are used on the aforementioned armors is for attaching the tasset buckles. I'd been worried about my brass capped rivets for the tasset buckles being too tall, and taking up too much room where the straps had to go. These Italian flatheads are the answer I needed here as well.

I made my rivets by starting out with some unsightly (but amply headed) rivets that I have a supply of, and spreading them out a bit on the rivet header.



Then I annealed the heads. (they were hotter than we see in this pic)



I took the oxide off with a flap wheel.



... and stamped them with the punch.



A trip over the sisal buff with black emery gets them shiny.



...and the pen plater makes them gold.



With the strap cut to a radius around the rivet, I have room for the pivot.... even if just barely.



Mac

I covet that machine. Must get one. Will gold plate everything.

Amazing work as usual Mac.

That's the third plating rectifier to be used on this project.

The first one is the one that I built years ago. An apprentice/friend designed it and sourced the parts from surplus catalogs. Unfortunately, it never really performed properly, and recently the voltage gauge crapped out. This left me checking the voltage with a multi-meter every few minutes.

The second one was a Chinese power supply I bought on Ebay. It worked for two minutes and then stopped. It would cool down (?) and work again for two minutes every couple of hours. I sent it back and got a refund for my $40 and they paid the shipping. I suspect that they will sell it to someone else, but I can't help that.

This one is an old American made power supply from another Ebay vendor. It is not so powerful or versitile as the Chinese one, but it does work, and will probably continue to do so. It cost just over $30, delivered.

Mac

Having sorted out and attached the mail and the tasset straps, I could finally assemble the cuirasse today.

The second fauld lame (with its attached mail skirt) got riveted to the first lame. Note that the internal leathers get threaded under the mail and its strip.



Here is where the internal leathers got riveted to the third lame.



That completed the fauld assembly.



Two rivets hole the fauld onto the flange of the lower breast; and that part is now done.



Assembling the cullet was pretty similar to assembling the fauld. The main difference is that the waist plate and lower lame of the back are already part of the assembly. The other difference is that the internal leathers originate on the waist plate flange.



Here, the third cullet lame and the butt lame are in place.



I thought it was better to attach the second back lame to the upper back at this point. It's easier to balance this assembly on the anvil now.



Finally, the three rivets that unite the upper and lower assemblies are installed, and the back is done as well.



The next step will be to assemble up, gild, and install the tasset buckles. I already have two of them... they are the buckles I didn't use on the mail skirt. I'll start that this evening.

Mac

I got the buckles for the tassets assembled and gilt last night. All of the tongues I made up a last year were a bit long, so I had to trim, reshape, re-polish and re-gild all the of the tips. It's one of those things that's hard to predict until the buckle is assembled. For many applications, if the tongues are a bit long it doesn't matter. On tassets, though, it would be a problem. There's just not enough slack in the system to get away with long tongues.



This morning I riveted them onto the tassets.



I clipped the rivets pretty short to minimize the bulk on the back sides. The holes have been countersunk on the back, so there is plenty of holding strength in spite of the small heads.



My camera is getting Alzheimer's, I think. It sometimes forgets how to autofocus. I took these with the flash to help it out a bit.





I'll start assembling the shoulders now. I won't get very far before I will need to make up more brass capped rivets, though. I think I have about a dozen.

Mac

WOW!! That's looking great!

Gorgeous...absolutely gorgeous.

The Goal is in sight! Go on withyour gorgeous work!

Thanks, Guys!

Mac

I started in on assembling the pauldrons today. I plan to make them up as two assemblies. The first will be the upper cannons. The second will be the neck lames and main plate. When those are married up, I will add the vambraces and then the elbow cops.


The leathers that were used for the temporary assembly are none the worse for it, and I see no reason not to reuse them. They were labeled while they were still attached, so there will be no question of what leather goes where.

Here are the upper cannon parts and the containers of leathers.



I riveted the leathers to the lowest lame/ring, keeping the rivets short so as to minimize interference with the overlapping plate.



The intermediate lame/ring was riveted to the leathers and the sliding rivet installed. It's important (as always) to make sure that any exposed construction holes get plugged while you can still get at them.



And, that's as far as I can take this without making more brass capped rivets. I did a quick count, and I think that another 100 will probably get me through the project. I have the brass stamped up and will start soldering tonight.

Mac

Am I seeing a tasset which will hang from one strap on the fore-fauld and one strap on the rear-fauld? Seems like it would add unnecessary bother in putting on the armour, but I don't know this style.

I am a bit surprised that nobody is selling those capped rivets yet. Focusing on one task for a few days is more efficient for everyone, and there are plenty of people selling brass and bronze fittings cast from originals. Now that I know to look for them, they are pretty common in 16th century armour.

Sean M wrote:Am I seeing a tasset which will hang from one strap on the fore-fauld and one strap on the rear-fauld? Seems like it would add unnecessary bother in putting on the armour, but I don't know this style.

That arrangement is pretty standard with Italian armors, but I can't bring any other German examples to mind right now. With a hinged cuirasse, like the Italians made, one of the tassets is not particular problem. In fact, they are sometimes attached without any buckles on the hinge side. The buckle side is more troublesome, as at least one of straps must be disassemblable.

Sean M wrote:I am a bit surprised that nobody is selling those capped rivets yet. Focusing on one task for a few days is more efficient for everyone, and there are plenty of people selling brass and bronze fittings cast from originals. Now that I know to look for them, they are pretty common in 16th century armour.

I'm not at all surprised. I don't think the market for them is big enough to support their production. Not enough people know they need them, and they are a pain to make. What's more, when you need them at all, you need them by the hundred. Many folks are willing to splurge and buy a dozen fancy rivets for their helmet, but this it an order of magnitude jump.

Mac

I soldered up a batch of 100 capped rivets on Friday....




... and I am still cleaning them up today.

Mac

On Saturday, I received the package I'd been waiting for form Rene Kohlstruck!



These are going to look great!



Now I need to find some 3/4" long 1/8" diameter rivets to solder them onto and work up a procedure. I'll post more when I get it figured out.

Mac

One hundred and two gumdrops in the armorer's candy dish.



Once I finished the rivets, progress went quickly on the lower sub-assembly of the pouldrons.



The temporary tabs needed to be replaced with nicer leather.



Putting the upper sub-assembly together went smoothly. Here is an inside view, showing the leathers.



Uniting the two sub-assemblies was straightforward if a bit troublesome. I used bolts in place of rivets for the sliding rivet and the front leather while I attached the central leather. That helped keep things form flopping around too much while I worked.



Somehow, the addition of the shoulders has made a big change in the way the armor looks on the stand. I now find that I have to keep turning it around so it does not seem to stare at me.



I have made up a set of buckles for the vambraces this evening. Tomorrow I hope the have the arms done.

Mac

I haven't had much time to read your thread over the last few months, but I just spent the last 3 or 4 hours catching up. Holy Mackerel!

I need to go lie down.

I'm not an armorer, nor am I a wearer of armor. But this thread is one of the very few things that keeps me visiting the Archive - to see the progress of this astonishing work of art.