Dusting off the cobwebs

[Chuck Davis]

Hi Mac and everyone! I really enjoy your thought process, and the work is lovely!

[Tableau]

Today was a "mental health" day. Joshua from Ottawa (Tableau) dropped by on his way from NYC to Pittsburgh. We talked shop, had lunch, and looked at books.

Mac

It was great to get to talk to you and see your shop. Thanks for entertaining me and answering all those questions.

I'm definitely going to have to come back and root through your library again some time. It's going to take me many years to gather up that many quality books myself.

Speaking of which, what was the name of that set of books on rotary tools and abrasives you were telling me about?

[Mac]

It was great to get to talk to you and see your shop. Thanks for entertaining me and answering all those questions.

I'm definitely going to have to come back and root through your library again some time. It's going to take me many years to gather up that many quality books myself.

Speaking of which, what was the name of that set of books on rotary tools and abrasives you were telling me about?

A pleasure to meet you. The books I was speaking of are these....http://www.astragalpress.com/Turning_Me ... lation.htm

Mac

[Mac]

I am going out of town on family business for the next week (?), so this project will be on hold for a bit. I expect to check in here during that time, but there will be no progress on the armor.

Mac

[Ceawlin]

Does anyone else keep coming back to view this thread every day, hoping against the odds Mac's last post was somehow a new one?

"Hi, I'm Ceawlin, and I'm addicted to Robert MacPherson's armor thread."

[Mac]

Creawlin et al,

I expect to be back in the shop on Wednesday.

Mac

[Ckanite]

That is good news! I've been waiting I hope this brief hiatus has you well rested up for another round!

[coreythompsonhm]

I must say, this has been one of the most informing thread that I have seen in awhile about shape and how things fit together, as well as how it fits to the body. Almost as good as talking to you in person at Chris Gilman's shop two years ago. Now that was a whole wealth of information I'm still trying to process and apply to what I do now.

Thank you Mac for all that you have shared with us, its truly inspiring and enlightening.

[Grischa]

after reading your tips I gave my old and nearly forgotten jigsaw another chance to cut sheet metal.
It worked wonders! Thanks a lot

[Mac]

Thanks, guys! I'm glad you are finding useful material here.

I am back in town, and have turned the heat on in the shop. Today's activity will probably be to start fluting the backplate.

Mac

[Mac]

after reading your tips I gave my old and nearly forgotten jigsaw another chance to cut sheet metal.
It worked wonders! Thanks a lot

Here are some more that I forgot to mention, GK.

Always cut either parallel to your bench, or else toward it. Cuts that get farther and farther away from the bench become less and less well supported, and frequently end with uncontrollable vibration and blade binding. This leads to spoiled work, broken blades, and frayed nerves. The "frayed nerves" part might not sound like much, but if you have anxiety about binding and breakage, you will not be able to do good work.

Also... think about what will happen as you complete the cut. Some pieces will just fall to the floor without trouble and others will sag and bind the blade. If you think it will sag, you must support it so that can not happen.

Mac

[Knight Sir James]

after reading your tips I gave my old and nearly forgotten jigsaw another chance to cut sheet metal.
It worked wonders! Thanks a lot

Here are some more that I forgot to mention, GK.

Always cut either parallel to your bench, or else toward it. Cuts that get farther and farther away from the bench become less and less well supported, and frequently end with uncontrollable vibration and blade binding. This leads to spoiled work, broken blades, and frayed nerves. The "frayed nerves" part might not sound like much, but if you have anxiety about binding and breakage, you will not be able to do good work.

Also... think about what will happen as you complete the cut. Some pieces will just fall to the floor without trouble and others will sag and bind the blade. If you think it will sag, you must support it so that can not happen.

Mac

Great tip, Mac! While I sadly haven't done this with steel, I do the exact same thing with support and blade distances when I cut sheets of wood similar to 1/16" plywood and the like. One thing I found very helpful is a pair of these:



They were under $20 at Home Depot on sale a few years back. Since the middle part can spread apart varied widths, it makes a great area to "cut inside" without having to hang over the edge (just mind the blade location!). When I'm working a big sheet, such as 4' x 4' or 4' x 8', I use the second one to support the excess so it doesn't "flop" too much. Can also use the second one and cut between them on large sheets so that nothing will start to sag and bind when almost cut.

[Mac]

It's important to really look at your source material. I thought I understood what was happening with the backplate and cullet, but it turns out I didn't.

At first glance, it looks like the cullet is three lames, with the third one coming to a deep point.....so that's what I did.



But I had a nagging feeling that something was wrong. Elsewhere on the altarpiece is a painting of a similar armor. This armor has a cullet of three lames plus a pointed butt-tasset.



This afternoon, while I was comparing what I had and the proposed fluting lines with my pictures, I noticed that there was something funny going on with the side tassets. They seemed not to be going over the third lame of the cullet. If anything, they were going under it.


The sculptor has presented us with a sort of an M.C.Escher thing. The side tassets seem to be going under a thing that they should be going over. My conclusion is that he meant to make the cullet have a separate "arsette" but forgot about that idea, and did not indicate the upper edge of it. Perhaps he neglected to leave himself the material he needed to carve the straps and said "screw it! it's in the back and nobody can see it".

I have written my Patron to see how he feels about changing over to a cullet with a butt-tasset. I am in favor, even though I will have to rebuild the last lame. I await his reply.

In the mean time, I will start cleaning up the backplate and finalizing the flute lines.

Mac

[Browin Auld]

I, personally, am a fan of both the idea and term "arsette".

Also - the flute count on the backplate is asymmetrical. 3 on the left, 4 on the right. Wasn't sure if that was another detail that almost escaped.

[Kristoffer]

I would like to point out that it seems like the first image has been flipped with an image editing software. The flute count and strap are reversed.

[schreiber]

I would like to point out that it seems like the first image has been flipped with an image editing software. The flute count and strap are reversed.

Ah, see, this used to be a lot simpler than having to write hundreds of thousands of lines of code.
20+ years ago all you had to do was put the negative in the enlarger backwards.

[Mac]

Browin gets two points for seeing the asymmetrical flute count.

XT gets two points for noticing that an image has been flipped, but looses a point for making St. Florian a lefty.

Schreiber receives one point for understanding the antiquated mechanism of the reversal. (If he were younger, he would have gotten two points.)

Does anybody see weirdness of the backplate construction?

Mac

[Signo]

The weirdness is that the waistline raise considerably on the spine, so much that the belt that old the pansiere si splitted in two parts.
Is this?

[Tom B.]

Does anybody see weirdness of the backplate construction?

Mac

Do you mean that there is no hourglass shaped plate in the middle at the waist?
There is a plate overlap right at the waist location.

Tom

[Ckanite]

Would it be the rather backward position of the tassets?

[Mac]

There is a plate overlap right at the waist location.

Tom

Tom's got it. Two points.

The usual construction has the waist lame extend some distance up the back, like this one....


....we can tell that this in not what's happening in St. Florian's back because of the scalloping where the flutes end at the waist.



I am not certain that we can trust the sculptor implicitly here... but it is harmless enough to do it his way, so that's what I did.

The pic below shows what things looked like yesterday afternoon. I have sketched in a couple of lines to show what I intend to do about the cullet. The line above the top of lame #3 will be where I plan to make the new lame #3 be. The line in the middle of lame#3 is approximately where I intend to put the upper edge of the butt-tasset. I think I can turn the current lame #3 into that tasset by trimming it down. But that all happens tomorrow, or over the weekend. The back will get fluted first.



Mac

[Kristoffer]

I would like to point out that Mac is back and this thread is back on top again. Yay! Lets keep it that way!

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I'm believing the sculptor because it creates a fine 'gothic' line with a minimum of forging. All you have to do is forge a small flange into the top of that first cullet lame. This one from the RA takes it the other way round, in a more common direction, but the overall effect is very similar. One of the prime properties of German 'gothic' stuff is that, unlike Italian armour of the same period, it is downright chaotic in terms of its individuality when it comes to construction.

[Mac]

Here's what the flute pattern will look like on the back. In the statue, we can not see the upper extent of the flutes, but it is an excellent bet that they end by stopping against one or more flutes that are more or less parallel to the armscye.



Prier to putting in any of the fluting, I have traced the edge of the backplate. This will give me a reference to work back to when correcting for the inevitable distortion.



Before going on, I would like to take a didactic digression, and say something about flutes. There are pretty much only four ways a flute can end....
--It can fade out.
--It can stop against a "half " or "step" flute.
--It can stop against a sunk band or border.
--It can meet another flute at an acute angle along a crest line.

If it ends in any of these ways, it is admissible of grinding with a wheel or abrading with a file.

A flute can not end end by stopping against a hem. A flute can not end by stopping against a "full" flute. Either of these will be impossible to grind or file. The first is pretty obvious. The second is less so, so I have made up a test piece to demonstrate the problem.

Here is an upper back lame from my scrap box. On the one side I have laid in a "half" flute followed by a "full" flute for the three-flute-spray to stop against. On the other side, I have laid in two "full" flutes.



Next, I laid in the sprays of flutes.



A few minutes on the grinder shows off the difference. The spray stopped against the half flute grinds out very nicely. By contrast the spray stopped against the full flute has "pockets" that can not be reached.



For this reason, the first of the flutes around the armscye must be a half flute. Laying in a half flute or step flute is just like laying in a full flute, except that you only strike on one side of the line.





The second flute is a full flute.



Before laying in the sprays, I checked for distortion of the upper back...



.....and corrected it.


This is as far as I am going with the fluting tonight.




Tomorrow I will flute the two lames, and get everything to match up.

Mac

[Mac]

I took some other pics this afternoon that show something about the construction history of this back. This is back #2 1/2...more or less. Back #1 had a shortfall at the sides, and some other problems as well. I kept the waist lame, and replaced the two lames and the upper back. At the fitting, I found I had to restructure it again. I can not remember exactly what I did, except that it involved welding up and moving some holes, and replacing the upper back again, and then shortening it at the top.

The old shoulder strap holes and the new ones.



This is where the waist belt will be riveted on. The holes pass through the first back lame and the flange of the waist lame. I have a temporary rivet through one, and the other is where I bolt the temporary belt. If you look closely, you can see a welded up hole and three quarters just to the right of the others.



The hole in the underlapping lame has been welded up and moved down a bit.



I guess what I am trying to show is that sometimes it's best to replace a plate and other times it makes more sense to weld and move ahead. As long as it is structurally sound, and looks good when the armor is done.....

Mac

[Mac]

But I had a nagging feeling that something was wrong. Elsewhere on the altarpiece is a painting of a similar armor. This armor has a cullet of three lames plus a pointed butt-tasset.

I must stand corrected. My Paton informs me that although the painting is by Micheal Pacher, it is not from the same altarpiece as the statue.

This does not invalidate the idea of using it a corroborating evidence. I am just setting the record straight.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I saw the painting at the Kunsthistorishes Museum in Wien in the old palace most people go to (the armour is in the Neue Burg). I had forgotten that the peculiar strapping on the back of the greaves is like that on the statue. I don't quite know what to think about the other harness shown in the painting (cropped out); I don't think it's entirely fictional.

[Signo]

Mac, considering the unusual layout of the backplate at the waist, how (if any) are supposed to move those plates when for example, the patron bend forward, or lean back a bit? My concern is mainly about how much thos plates overlap and how the two lames that make the waist meet each other.

[Tom B.]

Signo,

I do believe that the upper plates (waist and above) are riveted together in a solid fashion.
There is no relative movement required of these plates.
That is probably why Mac stated that this construction is unusual but harmless to the function.

[Mac]

I saw the painting at the Kunsthistorishes Museum in Wien in the old palace most people go to (the armour is in the Neue Burg). I had forgotten that the peculiar strapping on the back of the greaves is like that on the statue.

There are a lot of similarities between this armor and the one in the statue. The pauldrons and upper arms are essentially the same as well. It is from this painting that we are getting the vambraces for the armor. The sculptor of the statue has omitted vambraces entirely.

I don't quite know what to think about the other harness shown in the painting (cropped out); I don't think it's entirely fictional.

I cropped that out on purpose, lest we get too far afield. Armors like that could use a thread of their own.

Mac

[Mac]

Mac, considering the unusual layout of the backplate at the waist, how (if any) are supposed to move those plates when for example, the patron bend forward, or lean back a bit? My concern is mainly about how much thos plates overlap and how the two lames that make the waist meet each other.

Riveting lame #1 to the waist lame creates a thing which is essentially the same as the typical waist plate of a Gothic back. As James A.G. pointed out, it gets you the same thing with less work.

Mac

[Mac]

The fluting of the back lames was quite straightforward.



The lames are narrow, thin, not highly shaped. Thus, they distorted quite a bit from the fluting.



This I corrected with a mallet and a sandbag, as well as a bit of wrestling over the horn.



The first lame was temporarily riveted to the waist lame. I always put a sacrificial washer on temporary rivets. This makes it easier and safer to remove them. I grind away the piened head until it is gone. The washer keeps the plate from being touched by the grinder.


Once the head is ground away, I drive the rivet out with a punch.



The bolster for driving out the rivets has a hole cross-drilled through it so the waste rivets can be cleared out.


Flutes never line up as nicely as one would hope....



A bit of hammering on the assembled parts over the fluting stake goes a long way to setting them to right.



Here's what the back looks like with the flutes complete, and the edges scalloped. The central notches (in black sharpy) will not be cut until the parts are heat treated.



I may begin templating the changes to the cullet this evening.

Mac

[Ideval]

Fantastic technique and tool tutorial, as well as great art in progression!
Thank you for taking the time to do this.

[Mac]

Last night I spent a couple of hours working on the cullet modification. In the end, I had a template and a plan. The old lame #3 was to become the butt-tasset, and I would make a new, narrower lame to replace it.

Here is the new template. The black lines are proposed modifications of the edges of lames #1 and #2.



A few more words about cutting with the jigsaw....

Here's an armorer's view of the process. Note that the blade cuts the marker line away. You can see that I have lightly centerpunched the pivot location. You can also see that I have ditched the gloves I was using the other day. As I settle back into this, I remembered that I always hated the gloves.



Here's a right angle cut. You can't do this with a Beverly shear.



I wish I could remember whom it was who told me to use a Vicegrips rather than a C-clamp to hold the stock to the cutting bench. I had used a C-clamp for years, and never desired anything more. It seemed harmless to try. Well, they were right..... Vicegrips are much better! You can move the clamp much faster, and with one hand.



With the new lame #3 all shaped up and in place, It's time to turn out attention to turning the old one into the tasset.



I have some lines on the old lame, and I will use the jigsaw to cut it down.



A 2X2 clamped to the cutting bench serves as a support during this process.



This is what it now looks like with the various tassets taped in place.



Tomorrow...fluting. Tonight....a violin concert.

Mac

[J.G.Elmslie]

I'm starting to feel this thread's contents shouldn't be saved as a simple PDF of tips and tricks.

this is a masterclass that deserves to be a book.