Dusting off the cobwebs

[Cet]

I was talking with Jeff Wasson about doing some kind of seminar/demo day last Summer but my shop renovations didn't get wrapped up in the time I had been hoping for. Things are trending better for this Summer though.

[Mac]

I'm taking a little break while I gather myself for the next thing. I need to make the bevor attachment clasp so I know for sure where I can put temporary holes in the breast and gorget plate. My notebooks are starting to get cluttered with little sketches of clasps and possible constructions for them. They are brazed together boxes, so the all the moving parts and the spring must get inserted after the brazing. This should be fun.

Mac

[Aussie Yeoman]

I look forward to seeing that.

[bartholomew]

Hey Mac, my shop might be an option. Lots of parking, room for quite a few people.

[Ckanite]

This is true... but the seafood and ocean breeze are excellent!

Well, I'm sold!

[Mac]

Yesterday and today I worked on the bevor catch. I kept changing things around to try to fit what I have been dealt here with the position of the finial, the flute spray, etc.

I ended up with a more or less conventional catch, but set back from the edge of the gorget plate. Here's the relevent sketch, as well as the starting piece for the body and a mandrel over which it will be formed.



This shows how the body was formed around the mandrel. Unfortunately, this is Mk 1, and I used too big of a mandrel... but the principle is the same.



These are the rough parts. The body is .050" (1.27mm) thick. The "floor" with its mounting tabs is .072" (1.83mm). The barb was made from the 3/8" (9.53mm) square stock that had been the mandrel. The pivot is a piece of 3/32" (2.38mm) welding rod. The release button is a 1/8" (3.18) rivet, threaded #5-40. The spring in the pic is just a cardboard template.



When it is done, the final assembly must be through the hole for the barb. Here I am having a reality check to see it this will work. After thinning the end of the lever on the barb, it looks like it is going to fit.



The spring is going to fit in this nook on the underside of the lever. This is a place where I decided to deviate from my sketches. I feared that unless the spring were captured, it might slide away from the pivot and foul the mechanism by taking up precious space under the end of the lever.



In this pic, the catch is temporarily assembled up with the cardboard template sitting in for the spring. Strangely enough, it works. This is pretty encouraging. It means that the spring need not be very thick to work.



The spring was worked up from a piece of .012" (.3mm) "blued spring" sheet. I needed to heat is up to red to make the fold, so the heat treatment is shot.



The first step in re-heat treating it will be to harden the spring. I have hung it be a piece of 20ga binding wire, and will quench it in room temperature water from an orangey-red.



Next, I wrapped it up in 26ga binding wire, being careful not to bend it at all in the process....lest it "brast asunder".



The mummy spring was covered with oil and allowed to burn in the feather edge of a torch flame. The wire gives the spring a bit of thermal mass as well as providing capillary action to hold the oil. The whole thing relies on the idea that the oil will flash and burn at a reasonable tempering temperature.



Here is the newly re-tempered spring in place in the body of the catch.



There's one more thing that must be tested before the body and floor of the catch can be brazed together. We have to make sure that the barb and spring can be forced through the hole while everything is bound together.



...and it does.



The button depresses the barb, and everything springs back.



Here's what it looks like after brazing it together and cleaning it up on the grinder. I have not yet assembled it with the spring in place for fear that I might have trouble getting it apart again.



It will go here in the gorget lame. The black lines to either side will be slots to accommodate the staple which will be riveted to the breastplate. The circles, etc. are an idea about decoration.



Mac

[Ckanite]

Wow. Very well done!

[Halberds]

That little spring box is slicker than shit.
Next you will be making wheel locks.

Thanks for the pics.

[Kristoffer]

Lovely mechanism. I am so happy this thread is getting some action again. The dry spell has been torture.

[Beeman]

Wow! Thanks so much! Especially for the spring tempering guide! Very ingenious. Things like this are why I love this forum.

[Aussie Yeoman]

So, I imagine there's a 'female' half to this mechanism that is riveted to the breastplate?

I'm familiar with tempering springs with burning oil (old books recommend burning fish oil as getting an ideal temperature). But modern kitchen ovens get pretty hot. Why not temper it in an oven?

Fantastic buildalong.

[Mac]

Wow. Very well done!

Thank you!

That little spring box is slicker than shit.
Next you will be making wheel locks.
Thanks for the pics.

I played around a bit with wheel locks back in the late '90s. http://www.lightlink.com/armory/gunne.html Perhaps I will but them back on the menu.

Lovely mechanism. I am so happy this thread is getting some action again. The dry spell has been torture.

Happy to supply you with your "fix".

Mac

[Mac]

So, I imagine there's a 'female' half to this mechanism that is riveted to the breastplate?

Yes. There will be a staple on the breastplate into which the catch will insert. As It stands now, I will cut slots on either side of the catch to facilitate that. I am still thinking about it, though. I might just shorten the "point" of the gorget plate, and not have to fuss with the slots. This would make it easier to assemble things temporarily. I really don't want to cut the slots until the work is tempered. If I shorten the gorget lame, I can bolt on the staple and get on with it.

I'm familiar with tempering springs with burning oil (old books recommend burning fish oil as getting an ideal temperature). But modern kitchen ovens get pretty hot. Why not temper it in an oven?

I suppose that different oils burn a somewhat different temperatures, and there there may be ideal oils for different purposes. I suspect, though, that for this level of work, pretty much any oil will be good enough. In the past, I have used linseed. It is viscous, and stays put. Yesterday, I just grabbed up a can of "3-in-One" (that's a common household oil here in the States) and used that. It seems to have worked just fine. I thought about using the motor oil that I lubricate my lathes with, but did not want to breathe the additives.

I could have used an oven, or my little kiln that I use form warming pewter casting molds.... but that would have been more fuss and perhaps less certainty. The oil burnout is fast, and does not rely on thermostats or pyrometers, nor does it require cleaning off the delicate and brittle spring to be able to see the progress of the all too vague temper colors. In all, it seems like a good way to deal with small springs.

Mac

[Mac]

In an ideal universe, all the details of an armor are worked out on paper before anything is committed to steel. Back in the day, when a master craftsman was steeped in the tradition of his craft, this would not be necessary. He would have years of training that would tell him what would work and what would not. If we are cocky enough to think of ousfelves this way and leave things to work themselves out later in the project, we may well find that one of there little details will lie in waiting an bite us on the ass.

....and so is is with this bevor. As we saw earlier, I chose the wrong sort of bevor to go with the pauldrons and had to build another which is more suitable. Now I am trying to make it look like is belongs to the armor.

The sculptor left us with very little room to make the gorget plate fit. It is bounded by the rather high finial and the flute spray that issues from it.

Even though I have taken a bit of liberty, and broadened the spray, I am still left with a rather small gorget plate.



I have sketched out a few different decorative options and am presenting here in part so that my August Patron may see them conveniently.

The first set is based on the idea the the breastplate staple will engage the catch by emerging through slots in the gorget plate. This is related to the system found on the Gothic armor in Dresden. I thought about copying this catch more or less accurately, but as far as I can tell, the relationship between the barb pivot and the expected loads does not make it stable. The pivot in the Dresden catch is behind the working edge of the barb, rather than in front. If the bevor were to be struck back forcibly, I think the catch would tend to disengage. So in the end, I decided to go with a thing that was more common and probably more trustworthy.



Here it is utterly naked except for a couple of piercings to break up the boredom.



The which idea leads me to pierced work with scalloped along the whole edge. This ties the gorget plate aesthetically to the leg armor by reusing a motif from the demi-greaves.



The same, with a pair of flutes.



The same with single flutes. ....less cramped looking, but perhaps a bit boring.



Here the flutes are shaped like the ones in the upper cannons of the arms.






This next group involves cutting off 3/4" of the "point" of the gorget plate and mounting the staple on the breast with the more typical "ears".

Here's the piercing and scalloping again.



Here it is without the edgework, but with a pair of flutes.



I did not do the other obvious combinations, but if any of them are "in the running" I will sketch them out to make sure there are not problems before proceeding.

Mac

[Ckanite]

I really like the first set of flutes that you had drawn on. I also like the dog ears one the catch. Would you be able to work those into a seamless part of the motif? Maybe cut out a section and weld them in it's place and then shape the edges or raise up the center high enough? The reason I said cut and weld is I don't think that you would get enough meat on the steel for it to be effective after raising the section to an appropriate height...

[Mac]

Ckanite,

I sort of like that one too. I am thinking of adding a third flute to define and outline the edgework, like the one on the demi-greaves.

If I understand you correctly about the ears on the staple, you are concerned about whether they will be thick enough to make up for the thickness of the gorget plate. This is indeed a problem. The "box" of the catch must be a pretty close fit within the staple bacause the barb only raises up a scant 1/8". The traditional method seems to be to mount the staple over a strip of steel that gets captured under the ears. The thickness of this little strip makes up for the thickness of the gorget plate and ensures that the catch will be snug enough.

If this is not what you ere getting at, I think I am going to need to see a sketch.

Mac

[Ckanite]

Actually, that's just about what I had in mind. I know that you want to keep it as tight as possible, and having the box catch even a hair high could be disastrous.

What I was getting as was that the thickness of the ears themselves might throw off your careful calculations just a hair too much and recessing or making them and integral part of the BP might solve that problem while still being graceful.

I'll get a sketch to you in a bit

[Ckanite]

Actually, never mind Mac, As I was thinking it out on paper I figured out that I was completely false on my thinking... It's been one hell of a week

[Kristoffer]

Mac,

what about using the three little flutes that are on the top of the breastplate on the statue?

[Mac]

Actually, never mind Mac, As I was thinking it out on paper I figured out that I was completely false on my thinking... It's been one hell of a week

That's the beauty of drawing it out. I can't count the number of times I thought I understood something until I tried to draw it.

Mac

[Mac]

Mac,

what about using the three little flutes that are on the top of the breastplate on the statue?

Like this, Xt?



Mac

[Mac]

Since I had already drawn those lines for Xt, and had the camera in hand, I thought I would do one more. This is perhaps most like the decoration on the demigreaves.



Mac

[bartholomew]

Mac, that last one look the best!

[Paladin74]

Unbelievable, almost.

[Kristoffer]

I was thinking that the gorget should have the same flutes that are on the top of the breastplate as you can see in this picture. It might be just me but your lines seem longer and out along the edge more then the ones on the statue. Perhaps you could take a picture with the gorget mounted in place and from a longer distance so the whole breastplate can be seen. Perhaps ideally from the same perspective as the picture of the statue?

It is hard for me to see the "hole" picture when all I see is a close up of the gorget. I think this decision needs a full perspective, at least for me.

[Mac]

Something more like this?....



...or this?



Mac

[Alec]

Amazing thread! Love the discussion about the spring box. It is indeed slicker than shit! Wonderful explanations and questions.

Now this is really picky, and I am embarrassed to ask . . . but my eye keeps telling me that the curve of the top right breastplate flute (left hand side of the picture) is a little flat in the center. It looks like the center of the arc needs to be pushed ever so slightly up and towards the breastplate centerline to make a nice elegant curve. Is this a hammer and/or grinder fix for later? Of course this is from looking at a picture without the piece in hand so I may just be seeing things . . .

And can I ask a question about the bevor hem? When you squared the roll, it looks as if you are doing the hammer work cold. Is that the case? In my limited experience with tool steel, once I have used heat on a section, I keep using heat there to avoid cracking. So I am curious whether or not you used heat of not to square the hem. Love that little stake by the way.

Thanks!

[Johann ColdIron]

Something more like this?....



...or this?



Mac

The second one better matches the flute spacing to my eye. I think I also prefer the lack of edge embelishment as well, though I can't really explain why. Perhaps it is because that is not a feature of the upper body detailing?

[Mac]

My Patron would like to see the bevor decoration echo the treatment of the plackart, provided I can make the lower edge "lance safe". If I do it exactly like it is on the plackart, where will be many gaps where a lance might catch. That lower edge will have to be turned down and end up flush. It's going to be tricky, but if I can pull this off cleanly, it will look nice.



I am going to shorten the point of the gorget plate and make a conventional staple with mounting ears. First I will make the staple, and mark the holes in the gorget plate. Then I will put holes through the gorget plate as well as corresponding ones in the breastplate at those points. This will let me bolt (or rivet) the bevor to the breast for hot fitting. Later I will cut away the point to make room for the staple to sit against the breast. That's the plan, anyway. Stay tuned.

Mac

[Mac]

Amazing thread! Love the discussion about the spring box. It is indeed slicker than shit! Wonderful explanations and questions.

I am glad you like it. I had never made one before, so it was terra incognita, but it looks like it will work OK. I think that if I were doing it again, I would use thicker material for the body of the box. That would let me make the barb a bit narrower.

Now this is really picky, and I am embarrassed to ask . . . but my eye keeps telling me that the curve of the top right breastplate flute (left hand side of the picture) is a little flat in the center. It looks like the center of the arc needs to be pushed ever so slightly up and towards the breastplate centerline to make a nice elegant curve. Is this a hammer and/or grinder fix for later? Of course this is from looking at a picture without the piece in hand so I may just be seeing things . . .

I am thinking about altering the upper ends of the flutes, but I am undecided. If I do, it will with a hammer and torch.

And can I ask a question about the bevor hem? When you squared the roll, it looks as if you are doing the hammer work cold. Is that the case? In my limited experience with tool steel, once I have used heat on a section, I keep using heat there to avoid cracking. So I am curious whether or not you used heat of not to square the hem.

I squared up the hem hot. I did not want to take the time to try to make a photo of it in glowing because I was "in the groove". The photos are posed after the fact.

Love that little stake by the way.

I think that stake is a "keeper". I should label it so I don't forget what I made it for....

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I like the last picture. With the edge like that and only a flute in the middle. More flutes looks a bit too much. I agree with your patron.

[Tom B.]

My Patron would like to see the bevor decoration echo the treatment of the plackart, provided I can make the lower edge "lance safe". If I do it exactly like it is on the plackart, where will be many gaps where a lance might catch. That lower edge will have to be turned down and end up flush. It's going to be tricky, but if I can pull this off cleanly, it will look nice.

I was working may way through the thread and was getting ready to post that I thought the edged decoration matching the plackart would be the way to go if possible.

[Mac]

The first thing I needed to do was to go the the Home Despot for some stock. Everything I could find on my rack was wrong. Luckily, my local Despot is only seven minutes away.

The body of the catch measures out to be round about 1/2" square, so I made two bends in the newly purchased stock and clamped it up around a piece of 1/2" square stock to serve as a mandrel.



Then I heated it up with the torch and smacked it down.



The result was a bit too wide for the catch body, so I took a little material off the sides of the mandrel, and repeated the heating and smacking.



The result was a better fit.



Next, I locked it all up in the vise upside down and bent the mounting ears down.



It was a bit too deep.



So, back to the vise, but this time I set the mandrel higher. (I had not thought about allowing for the thickness of the material the first time.) In the mean time, cut the piece off the stock, but welded on a bit of rod for a handle.



That all worked fine, so I cleaned up the staple and filed it to shape.



I then drilled holes right through the gorget plate and the breast in the places where the staple will be mounted.



When it is all said and done, the place where the holes are in the gorget plate will be cut away, but in the mean time they will serve a way to fasten everything together for hot fitting. This will come in handy after I do all that work on the borders.



It may be Monday before I can return to this. It looks like the weekend is going to be devoted to yard work, and making a mold for a custom pewter project.

Mac

[Chris Gilman]

This thread makes me so happy.

[Tom B.]

Are the latch and staple made from mild steel?