The Armour Archive

Chris Gilman wrote:This thread makes me so happy.

Delighted to please, Chris!

Mac

Tom B. wrote:Are the latch and staple made from mild steel?

The body of the catch is 1050, just 'cause that's what I have laying around. Because of the brazed construction, there is no possibility of hardening it. Those areas that came to the austinitizing temperature during the brazing are now in a perlitic condition, the rest will still be in an annealed state.

The barb is mild steel, as is the staple.

It would be interesting to know if the real ones were hardened. I suspect not, for the catch body... what with the brazing. The barb would wear better if hardened and tempered; but how much wear will it get, really? The staples could be hardened and spring tempered, but that might be overkill as well. I suspect that they fail by having their rivets shear out, rather than through deformation of the structure.

Mac

Mac, the archive ate a long post I tried to write regarding the decoration on the gorget and lance-proofing it. In short, if your patron is set on matching the decoration on the plackart (essentially putting a grid to catch on the edge of the gorget), a few things:

A shield or granguard shaped and fitted properly may make the whole concern more or less a moot point. Your patron's riding form at impact notwithstanding, the three dimensional shape (and fit to the harness) of the target will more affect where the lance is going than (in the case of using a shield of some kind) fretting about a completely wild shot hitting the off side of the breastplate on a non-ideal angle.

Keep an eye on the outline of the very bottom edge of the gorget - as long as it doesn't curve downward before a sliding lance strike can slide to a point tangent to the curve of the breastplate, the lance is least likely to "catch" at a "corner" between the gorget and breastplate; it should keep sliding until it does whatever it is going to do if it stays in contact until encountering the shoulder.

Regarding the shaping of the decorative edge flutes, look at your cross sectional shape of your flute pattern. A simple "ridged" line can act like a grid; even a little angle from the bottom to the top of the edge flutes can help get a thrust to slide up into the clean face of the plate instead of digging in. This is probably a spot where playing with shadows using not-so-sharply-cusped flutes to make them look sharper than they actually are can pay dividends.

I know all of the above is probably very minor in the grand scheme of things, but if we're talking about blunt honest safety and it really is no more trouble one way or another in the building stages, why not?


. . . and I like the slotted look better, but functionally simpler is probably better. . . especially if we're concerned with the behavior of lance strikes on decorative edges. Ease of repair/replacement of the mechanical bits long-term is really likely a case of "when" rather than "if", just due to the realities of basic use.



I also took another close look at the fit between the gorget and breastplate. If that flute on the breastplate that rides the edge of the gorget gets a little more aggressive/dramatic as the project nears completion, and the flute isn't made symmetrically in cross section, I think it can be used to help "protect" the join between gorget edge and the breastplate face.

Cheers!

Thanks, Jonathon!

It's irritating to loose a post. I sometimes find that if I hit the "back" button before I've had a chance to panic and make things worse I can sometimes copy it onto the "clipboard" before all is lost.

What you say makes sense, but this armor is not destined to see that sort of use. Our plan is to make decisions based on the idea that this will be a usable field armor. On the other hand, it's never going have to prove that it can shed lance blows. I will do the best I can to make a nice looking border that should perform well enough if it had to.

The fact that the gorget lame is settled in behind a flute should help, really. A point sliding up the breast would probably ride up the flute and skip up and over the edge of the gorget lame before it had a chance to lodge under it. On the other hand, the point that struck directly into the narrow space between the flute and the edge of gorget lame could be trouble, but that would be a very rare occurrence.

Mac

Thanks for the clarification, Mac. I wasn't completely sure of the overall intentions of the project with your post reflecting your patron's concern about enduring lance blows. "Could" vs. "would" here will make your job a bit less. . . tedious.

Your final thought on the flute is where I was going with my last statement as well. As a point of refinement, my suggestion regarding the cross sectional shape of the flute was intended to provide a geometric means of both encouraging the sort of behavior under load you describe along with making the potential gap presented between bevor and breastplate as small as possible to reduce the chance of even a fluke of a strike finding somewhere to grab on to.

I'm also relieved to hear that with your intentions in mind, your wonderful locksmithing will be clearly safe from damage.


(Maybe a topic for another time, but I think it great that you chose specifically to discuss the suit in terms of a field harness. Purely field harnesses, tournament suits - both horseback and foot tourney, tilting suits, parade suits, and the jack of all trades harness that predated specific sport-specific exchange pieces all provide unique subtleties in design decisions that I think are rarely addressed when modern patrons often go in search of 'armor'. I get excited to see these little details in a project, as they are often I think interpreted as the "intangible" things that draw the lines between "good" and "great". Fun stuff!)

The nature of the armor makes quite a bit of difference in how we must treat the details. Lots of things that would be OK in a field armor would be madness in a jousting harness, and vice versa.

Armors are like cars. There are there are utility vehicles, luxury vehicles, and racing vehicles of every sort. For each, there are expectations, requirements, and whole different sets of compromises.

Mac

~psst~ Mac, don't tell that to my brother who takes his Camaro camping with a canoe strapped on the top...

So... This weekend's activities in the yard involved cutting my thumb on some broken glass that was hiding in the compost. Irritating and inconvenient. I expect to be able to hold a hammer again in a couple of days.

Mac

Ckanite wrote:~psst~ Mac, don't tell that to my brother who takes his Camaro camping with a canoe strapped on the top...

It's like what I sometimes say about whether "parade armors" could be used in warfare. Sure! You can drive your sports car down dirt roads, but you are not going to like the repair quotes.

Mac

Mac wrote:

Ckanite wrote:~psst~ Mac, don't tell that to my brother who takes his Camaro camping with a canoe strapped on the top...

It's like what I sometimes say about whether "parade armors" could be used in warfare. Sure! You can drive your sports car down dirt roads, but you are not going to like the repair quotes.

Mac

I have been known to describe jousting in general as "Demolition Derby with Lamborginis". Horses are expensive to maintain, armor is expensive to buy, bodies take a long time to heal and medical insurance ain't cheap. Ultimately this whole sport involves a strong willingness to trash expensive things. I some times think that a requirement for nobility is the cashflow to trash armor in peace-time in a bizzare trickle-down economic make-work programs to insure that there are skilled armorers for war-time.

Sorry about the thumb. Hopefully the glass is the last of the surprises from the previous owner.

Sean

Sean, that sounds like a very good assessment of things. And you need you're manufactures just as in practice as your warriors for when you need to ramp up for war.

Back in the shop today. The thumb is performing well.... and strangely enough, the bandage actually helps with the torch shut-off knob. Go figure.

Details this evening.

Mac

WOOT!

Yay!

The first thing I did was to lay in the border by turning down the edge and making a "half flute".



Next, I needed a fluting tool that was narrow enough to fit within the border. I think I mentioned somewhere else that I do not like making tools. This one used to be chisel I bought at a flea market. The view here is from under the plate, with the tool in the vise.



Here are the spacings marked out in soapstone, because they are going to be done hot. The "innies" are marked with a circle; just to keep track.



Here I have set the flutes, and am about to go back and depress the "innies" with a slightly wider cross pein. This will be done hot, with the work supported by the fluting stake. The stake gets shifted to whatever end on the "cell" needs support.



For the "outies" I needed yet another stake. This one was ground from another flea market find; this time a shank from a small air impact hammer.



Like the other, this stake must fit between the edges of the border.



With the "innies" and "outies" bossed in, the edge has come to be a bit funky.... but you all expected that, right? Before the plate is fitted back to the breast, these edges must be ground to a nice smooth line.



Now, it is time to through up the central crest from the top of the catch mechanism to the point at the neck. This is none hot to localize the work.



This will leave a gap on the inside because the chin plate does not yet have a crest line there. That will get bossed up hot from behind until it looks smooth, and then the crest will get sharpened from the front.



Refitting the bevor to the breast took a certain amount of heating, clamping and pressing, as well as that pair of screws in the area that will be cut off later.



This is what it looks like when I quit this afternoon. It fits pretty nicely. I have not sharpened up the crest line under the chin yet. I also need to close up some spaces to either side of the crest... they are a bit too open.



Mac

Wow...

Loving this post, learning so much, I dont know how many times Ive reread it, please keep it coming

I am absolutely stunned as to how well that came out! Boxing the edge like that and putting a matching taper on it. Beautiful. I would have gone a completely different route, with not nearly as nice a result...

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Wow...

Uh, yeah...what he said. Very nice control of the fluting.

Thank you, guys!

Mac

I took the day off today, and hung out at the Philly Museum with Dirk Breiding and Jeff Wasson. We talked about armor.... (imagine that).

Mac

Mac wrote:I took the day off today, and hung out at the Philly Museum with Dirk Breiding and Jeff Wasson. We talked about armor.... (imagine that).

Mac

Sounds like a nice day.
So Dirk went to Philly and Pierre went to New York?

Tom B. wrote:
Sounds like a nice day.

A good time was had by all.

Tom B. wrote:So Dirk went to Philly and Pierre went to New York?

Yes. Each of them went to a higher position in the opposite institution. Both well deserved promotions.

Mac

Mac wrote:

Tom B. wrote:
Sounds like a nice day.

A good time was had by all.

Tom B. wrote:So Dirk went to Philly and Pierre went to New York?

Yes. Each of them went to a higher position in the opposite institution. Both well deserved promotions.

Mac

I noted the promotions.
Good to see the promotions for those deserving.

Hey Mac, how's it all coming? I was a bit saddened and disheartened to see that this thread wasn't even on the first page anymore...

I have had some other things get in the way the last few days. I returned to the project yesterday, but did not take any pics. The gorget of the bevor has come to be distorted from its original shape by all the work on the border and neck. The result is that the shoulders of the gorget plate were too high... a fact which escaped my attention until I tried putting everything back on the stand.

Yesterday I bolted the bevor to the breast, and through heating and brute force, shoved it back to where it should have been. I followed this up by re-fitting the lower edge to the breast with spot heat and clamps. The neck hem of the breast now makes a noticeable bulge in the gorget plate. It looks OK that way. Indeed, many of the flatter sorts of bevor gorget plates have a rather more formalized bulge for the underlying neck hem, outlined in incised lines etc. I will not go that route, because of the space constraints.

I have begun to return my attention to the pauldrons. You may recall that it was fitting the pauldrons that caused this whole digression which resulted in the rebuilding of the bevor. The problem I now face is that my super-adjustable-ultra-etc. armor stand is giving me trouble. The asymmetry of the Ft Florian pose is causing some trouble. The main problem, though, is that the stand puts the pauldrons too high for me to work comfortably. I am dealing with a nerve-pinch issue in my neck, and working at this height is exactly what I need to avoid. I think what I need to do is dismount the upper torso at the waist and figure out a way to clamp it up to the bench at a convenient height. As I type this, I am thinking of making a temporary mount that will accept the upper torso and which features a lazy-susan bearing so I can easily get at all sides...... I wonder if the Home Despot has what I need....

Mac

Mac,

this is what you need!

http://www.rockler.com/lazy-susan-heavy-duty-swivel

You'd have to mount it and come up with the clamping arrangements yourself, but this one has a 330 lb load rating, and you can get it shipped next day if you don't have a Rockler local to you.

Xtracted wrote:Mac,

this is what you need!

That would be a useful thing to have, but I think a turntable mount for the upper torso will serve me better. I can kill both birds with one stone, and all that without the risk of stepping backward and breaking my neck.

Mac

Destichado wrote:http://www.rockler.com/lazy-susan-heavy-duty-swivel

You'd have to mount it and come up with the clamping arrangements yourself, but this one has a 330 lb load rating, and you can get it shipped next day if you don't have a Rockler local to you.

That's a very butch sort of turntable bearing! I will keep in in mind for my kitchen renovation. The "counter revolution" is long overdue.

I went to my local (OK it was 35minutes away) Ace Hardware and got one of these. http://www.acehardware.com/product/inde ... 05.1259727



It's rated for 100lb, and that's more than enough for this purpose, and at $13 bucks, it seems like appropriate technology.

Mac

Well, push it till it breaks and we'll see if it was worth it!

Things always take more time then they should. Here's what the new turntable looks like with Massimo's thorax installed. The gray stuff is carpet padding to flesh him out a bit so the cuirasse sits correctly.



...meanwhile, the rest of the armor stand looks a bit ludicrous.



Here's a pic with the cuirasse and bevor on the "turn-torso".



The lazy-sue bearing works just fine in this application. It turns smoothly, but not so freely that the unevenness of the bench makes it turn when I don't want it to.

Very nice Mac. And I agree, things always take way longer than they should.

Nicely done, Mac. And easily reversible to reconnect, too. Are you not going to need his arms above the elbow to accurately position the pauldrons?

The "counter revolution" is long overdue.

The 'counter revolution' will NOT be televised! Or get its own thread.