Dusting off the cobwebs

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Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Nicely done, Mac. And easily reversible to reconnect, too. Are you not going to need his arms above the elbow to accurately position the pauldrons?
The torso "interfaces" with the turntable the same way it does on the stand, so it's easy to swap back and forth. Two carriage bolts go through a choice of holes for different heights and are secures with wing nuts.

I can put the arms on if I need them. It might be nice to have them in a neutral position, but I am reluctant to change the current settings. It was difficult to get the shoulder joints just right for the St Florian pose, and I am loath to have to do it again. Perhaps I will make some match-marks with a sharpy marker and assume I can get them back to where they were that way....

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
The "counter revolution" is long overdue.
The 'counter revolution' will NOT be televised! Or get its own thread. :D
Wow! 1971! Are we getting old or what?

I am sure my wife will document the "counter revolution" on Facebook. The digital camera and social media have changed the face of home improvement forever.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

Hey, I'm a history buff. :wink:
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Ckanite
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Ckanite »

Mac wrote:
James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
The "counter revolution" is long overdue.
The 'counter revolution' will NOT be televised! Or get its own thread. :D
Wow! 1971! Are we getting old or what?

I am sure my wife will document the "counter revolution" on Facebook. The digital camera and social media have changed the face of home improvement forever.

Mac

Not always for the better :wink:
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I decided it was better to risk loosing the St. Florian pose, and put the arms on the torso.

Image

This made it easier to get the pauldrons fitting. The deep hems needed to be adjusted a bit to get the curves to match and fit the cuirasse. That was mostly done by spot heating to red and gently bending the plate.

This turn-torso thing is definitely "the bee's knee's"! While messing with the pauldrons, I must have turned it around dozens of times, and before they are done I expect to turn it a hundred more times. It was a good investment of time and money.

ImageImageImage

I could not resist putting the helmet on to see how things were looking.

Image

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Konstantin the Red
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Konstantin the Red »

The 'counter revolution' will NOT be televised! Or get its own thread.
There goes that home-makeover show, then.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by AnJa »

Very nice! It's a sculpture!
Thanks for sharing all the process with us. That's very generous from you.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Arrakis »

This thread and the work therein are simply incredible.

What's next, Mac? Back to the tubes-in-tubes experiments?
Fighting Belegarth, Amtgard, Dagorhir, and SCA Heavy
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Thanks, guys!

I will give the "tubes within tubes" thing another try, but it will probably not be soon. This is the time of year when I must shift gears and become a pewterer. If takes a couple of months to get ready for Pennsic.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Jason Grimes »

Noooo,

Ack, ok,

I understand, but, but,

Eeeeeeerrrrkkk,

dag nabbit, Pthibbbtpt!

*sigh*

uh, did I just say that out loud?
Jason
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I am just bring this back the the front page so I can find it again when I need to.

I have pretty much recovered from Pennsic, and am now devoting myself to catching up with work around the house, shop and yard.

The wooden picket fence is rotted and I am replacing it with new panels we bought last fall. It's heavy work for an old guy.

Yesterday I indulged myself by swapping in some of the new/old parts that I bought on Ebay months ago for my metal lathe . My countershaft was a disaster, but the one I just installed is in pretty good shape, and should last my natural life. I finished off the evening by installing the very rare (I have only ever seen one on Ebay, and I bought it) belt guard that fits with the old overhead style countershaft. Atlas lathe enthusiasts, eat your hearts out! I've also got a new/old arbor and bull wheel to install, but I should make sure that it's all going to fit with my chucks etc. before tearing anything apart.

A little bit more puttering around, and then I will be returning the the St Florian armor..... probably in the next week or two. I promise.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Aussie Yeoman »

Huzzah!!!!
Konstantin the Red
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Sonoma Beach, that's sweet metalwork!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Carmel »

THANK YOU!
Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I appreciate your enthusiasm, guys!

The major house and yard work is done for this fall, and the current thrust is getting the shop back into shape for armor work. A couple more days, I think, and I will be back on it.

Meanwhile, I am negotiating with a shoemaker for the shoes to accompany the harness. It looks like there may be an armor-for-shoes program. If that goes through, I will be showing progress on the "trade goods" here as well.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Ckanite
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Ckanite »

Man oh man I can't wait!
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Keegan Ingrassia
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Awesome, more Mac-made armor to drool over. :D
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by marcos.blues »

Mac Master,

It is very nice to see and learn from their mastery.
Congratulations
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Today I refamiliarized myself with the shoulders.

Let's step back a few years. At the very first fitting session this is what the shoulder and upper arm assemblies looked like.

ImageImageImage

This is the amount that they would flex. I found it worked OK on me, but that test only works if the armorer and the customer are the same size.Image

Unfortunately, this was just not going to do it. The upper arms were too tight, and a bit too short as well. The pauldrons themselves were a bit small, but I was prepared to ignore that.

The first thing I did was to decide that the upper arm lames were essentially scrap. This freed them up to be used a templates and models. I then cut the seams apart and spread them till they had a better circumference..... Image

....and made some notes about how much needed to be added to the width of each lame to make the length of the upper arm come out right. Image

Then, while my August Patron was being a tourist in the Greater Philly Area, I built a new set of upper arms. This is, by the way, an excellent way to organize a fitting if your client is willing to be in town for a few days. You try everything you have prepared, and if something needs rebuilding, your client gets to see the sights for a day while you work frantically in solitude.


ImageImageImage

The new upper arms fit better.... but the range of motion was insufficient. And this is where we ran out of fitting time.

Several years elapse during which time ....I have a rather unsuccessful surgery on my right elbow.... and then my left elbow starts giving me the same sort of trouble....and I take it easy and try not to do anything to hurt myself... and in a couple of years my elbows start to feel a bit better but I am afraid to do anything .... and then my Patron reminds me that we are not getting any younger (which is very true)....and I start the project back up again.



In picking the project back up, we decide that as a fallback position, we would try a more conventional sort of upper arm/pauldron arrangement. You all may remember that I made new upper arms a few months ago. Well... That was a bust too. The new upper arms look nice.

ImageImage

....but their range of motion is even worse than the "MK II tubes within tubes" arms. And, of course, it's not what's on the statue.
ImageImage

Following some of the suggestions of James Arlen G., I began tweaking the articulation of the left MKII "tubes" arm, and found that I could get more out of it than I had. Image

But, this motion comes at a cost. The inside view shows how much the edges of the lames/tubes intrude on the wearer's space. Image

About that time, I tried the armor on our local body double, Galleron. The thing I learned from this is that I had the arms set too far forward on the pouldrons and there was not enough space at the front of the shoulders. I was going to need to make new pouldrons, and this would be the opportunity to make them be bigger.

These pics show the difference between the old and new pauldrons.
ImageImage

The plan is to make yet another set of "tubes within tubes" upper arms see if I can get them to work this time. The hope is that the additional room I am building into the fronts of the new pouldrons will give enough clearance for the whole thing to flex sufficiently.

I will begin templating them this evening and hope to be shaping steel tomorrow.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Keegan Ingrassia
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Wow. Now that is a story of persistence. I admire your willingness to scrap and start over until the piece is right. I would have lived with an inferior product, and been somewhat unhappy forever. I like your method better.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
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Ckanite
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Ckanite »

Seriously. That and I never really understood the whole tubes within tubes thing... Thanks for the brief recap of your grief with this project. Very insightful.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

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This evening I started in with the templating, the morning having been largely devoted to plotting and scheming. The old MKII templates are shown for comparison. The new templates are predicated on the idea that the ventral side of each lame will be conical, while the dorsal side will be cylindrical. That is to say, all the necessary conicalness or the assembly will be in front, where it will do the most good.

Image

All cut out, pinned together, and wedged into place; the assembly looks like this.

ImageImageImage

It's a good first shot, but each of the lames needed a bit of tweaking one way or another. The bottom lame needed a bit less of the "conical thing" in the front, so I snipped out a wedge and taped it back together.

Image

Also, the upper edge did not sit as flat as I wanted it.

Image

Those changes go into the next iteration.

Image

All the lames got replaced at least once this evening. The results are better, but I will probably come back at it tomorrow before I commit anything to steel. The blue marker lines on the main plate of the pouldron show approximately where I expect to trim it, but that will not happen till the upper arm assemblies are roughed out.

ImageImageImage

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Johann ColdIron »

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Wow. Now that is a story of persistence. I admire your willingness to scrap and start over until the piece is right. I would have lived with an inferior product, and been somewhat unhappy forever. I like your method better.

No kidding. Working for a patron is harder than working for yourself. Two people to be happy with the work!

Boy that change in geometry is subtle. I see how the "conical VS cylindrical" could help the movement where you need it though. Not a lot of change in shape at the back of the upper arm. Front, whole different story!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Today's work was to begin cutting and shaping the new upper arms. Here are the lowest lames all laid out on the steel.
Image

I thought I would try something a bit different for the riveted closures of the tubes. This is what the MKIs look like. They are flush riveted and the joint is stepped down to create a smooth outer surface that will grind well.
Image

But that's a whole thickness of metal plus the rivet heads on the inside. This makes the articulation a bit sloppy.
Image

For the new parts, I thought I would try reducing the internal bulk by thinning the overlaps and using headless rivets. I drew lines on the inside surfaces to guide the thinning process....
Image

....and crosspeaned the overlaps to thin them.
Image

After thinning the overlaps I gave the lames a bit of a curve to "give them the idea".
Image

That was followed with the usual hammering from the back to "give them a bit of life".
Image

For those "headless" rivets I mentioned, I used a few of the cut-offs that I have been saving.
Image

The ballpeen hammer is a suitable tool for this job.
Image

Notice that I have countersunk the holes on the inside as well as on the outside. I want them to be as smooth as possible.
Image

Once the rivets are set, the joint is "set down" over the edge of this bicorn. I used the flat face of my favorite ballpien hammer for this.
Image

The resulting joints are smoother on the inside than my previous ones. I hope the extra effort will have been worth it.
Image

The lowest lames are ready for the next step.
Image

The second lames are beginning to take shape.
Image

Tomorrow, I hope to have all the lames temporarily assembled.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Nicknizh »

Thanks for the treat! Countersinking from both sides is a great idea, I also did it to the metacarpal plate of my right gauntlet to make it move as free as possible.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Zetheros »

This thread is amazing... it's like you're writing the armoursmith's bible, Mac, and we're fortunate enough to witness it.

I come back after a few weeks, and I'm completely inspired at the amount of information here.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

The second lame went together pretty quickly.

Image

The cross section is very strongly oval.

Image

The third lame was even easier, because it's open on the inside.

Image

Getting the new upper arms to fit the pouldrons took a bit of time a trouble, but all in all it went more easily than I feared it would. The green lines on the upper arm lame mark the place where I would like it to line up. The rivets should all line up along vertical(ish) lines, and those are marked in as well. The distance between rivets should be 3", and the places where the vertical(ish) lines are crossed (up in the prospective underlap) is where I hope to place them. The blue dots on the pouldrons are where I will punch the holes.
Image

That blue line on pouldron plate is a first approximation of what I think I need to remove.
Image

So, I grind until I get nervous, erase the line with acetone, and try to fit the parts together.
Image

I then make a new blue line and repeat the process.
Image

After three iterations of that, they pretty much fit, and could be bolted in place. This is not the final shape for the edge. It will get cleaned up and made pretty later. Note that the holes in the pouldron are punched already, and it was just a question of figuring our where to punch their mates in the lame.
Image

This is where I am stopping for the day. Both arms are bolted onto their pouldrons.
Image

Tomorrow will start with getting the ends of the top lames of the upper arms and the main plates of the pouldrons to come together nicely in front and back. This is going to involve spot heating.
ImageImage

Mac
Last edited by Mac on Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Zetheros wrote:This thread is amazing... it's like you're writing the armoursmith's bible, Mac, and we're fortunate enough to witness it.

I come back after a few weeks, and I'm completely inspired at the amount of information here.
Thank you, Zeth!

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by coreythompsonhm »

I like seeing that I do the same as you... Lots and lots of sharpie lines with ideas and where you want things to be!

The little snippet I saw of you working while we were at Chris Giman's shop was inspiring, but this thread takes the cake. Its great to see the Maestro at work again! Every day I anticipate seeing what more you will get done.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

the first thing I needed to do today was to get the ends of the upper lames and the main plates of the pouldrons to fit properly at the front and back.

This is the back of the right pouldron. The "X" is the place where the work will be supported, and the circle is the place that will be pushed down. This will be hot work, and the hammer I started with is the one in the pic.

Image

I found that hammer to be a bit big, so I continued with one that has a smaller face.

ImageImage

Same thing for the front, except I am not going to close up the entire space by moving the pouldron plate.

Image

Some of the gap will get closed by reshaping the lame. I have clamped the place where lames two and three come together because I don't want that to change.

Image

After a little heating and gentle beating, it looks like this.
Image

This would be a difficult shape to manage cold, but with heat and clamps, it's trivial.
Image

A similar thing had to happen in the back.
Image

This time it's the pointy vicegrips that is needed. It's important to remember to keep the torch off the vicegrips or you can ruin the spring.
Image

Voila!
Image

Then the whole area gets warmed up to stress relieve it.
Image

Here is where I plan to trim the edges.
Image

So, everything gets disassembled and taken to the grinder. I don't have any pictures of the grinding. It's boring work, and it takes longer than it has a right to . After the exposed edges were ground to shape and smoothed off, I reassembled everything and marked the places where the edges lie. Those are the thin blue lines in the next pic. The green lines are about trimming the amount of underlap.

Image

After messing with the underlaps in the backs of each lame, I was reasonable satisfied with the motion. I will brobably make further adjustments, but here is what I get right now. I believe this is going to work OK.

Image

The next issue is this. In the pics of the statue, it is abundantly clear that the second lame of the upper arm is a complete tube for about 2/3 of its height, and that it extends above the ham of the breastplate. I've pretty much got that, but it's not very comfortable. I am considering cutting some of the second lame away so that it ends below the hem of the breast. This will allow the arms to sit closer to the body. It won't be like the statue, but it will be more comfortable to wear. I will write my August Patron and see if he would rather have fidelity or comfort.

ImageImage

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Nicknizh »

Robert, why don't you just trim the edges with some scissors? Yea, they will probably distort the shape a little, but you have two references to fix it back in no time. Grinding that much metal seems like overkill to me and all that dust...
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Sean Powell »

Nicknizh wrote:Robert, why don't you just trim the edges with some scissors? Yea, they will probably distort the shape a little, but you have two references to fix it back in no time. Grinding that much metal seems like overkill to me and all that dust...
I'll take a guess but Mac can correct me if I'm wrong. Having hot-worked the majority of this armor which is 1045 or 1050 there will be carbide nodules in the steel from 'air quenching' etc and they ruin shear blades pretty quickly. Also, Mac doesn't own a Beverly shear and when I had the privilege to work in his shop I brought my lighter weight steel back to my own basement for work with the HF shear. Also, Also for some of the lines even a shear can't take the curve the grinder needs to be used.

Sean
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Scott Martin »

Very pretty Mac, I suspect that your scrap bucket will remain ful of pieces that many of us woud like to be able to make - I recall a poleyn that Mr. Darnell engraved which had originated in your scrap bin. When asked why it was scrap you couldn't remember - "probably didn't fit right" was your response at the time, and you then made some pithy observations that if your scrap bin didn't see a lot of use you probably weren't learning much...

Nick and Sean, it's important to note that shears also distort the shape of the metal as they cut, doubly so for tight curves. I admit that I would have been tempted (given that IIRC Mac has a kiln for tempering) to anneal the pieces and use a jewelers saw to take the curves back - more time overall, but less of the time would be *my* time since the annealing would be overnight.

As a result of Mac's "influence" I have taken to using a jewelers saw to cut many of my more detailed / finer curves, since the extra time I spend on the cutting is (more than) offset by not having to hammer plates back into shape and clean up edges. This is especially true of thinner plates (like gauntlets) where I can't afford to lose a significant amount of material to grinding where a nick or scuff could just be ground off on a thicker plate.

Scott
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Nicknizh wrote:Robert, why don't you just trim the edges with some scissors? Yea, they will probably distort the shape a little, but you have two references to fix it back in no time. Grinding that much metal seems like overkill to me and all that dust...
These underlaps at the tops of the lames got cut with an "aviation shear". The result was not very accurate but it's inside, so as long as it ends up smooth it's OK.

Image

These points however can't really be cut with a shear. A shear can not enter the work at such a shallow angle. Grinding and or filing is really the best way here.

Image

Here, where the pouldron plate needed trimming, I could have gotten most of the material off with a shear. I chose to use the grinder for two reasons. The one is as Sean says; the air cooled steel is abusive to the shear. The other is that I was headed for the grinder anyway.

Image

I will post a pic of the grinder later today. It may not be what you have in mind.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Mac
Archive Member
Posts: 9670
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Jeffersonville, PA

Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Here is a pic of the grinder. It is shown with what is left of a 9" (?) "notching" wheel mounted on the arbor. These "notchers" are designed to work like big cutoff wheels. They are course gritted and very well reenforced. The skinny little edge is very aggressive. This makes them great for hogging material away. As far as dust goes, the thing at the bottom of the image is the scoop of the dust collector. That takes care of most of it.

Image

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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