The Armour Archive

Ckanite wrote:I don't know if I could take the chance of abusing it so much...

It would be very authentic to do so. That was part of your station..."Jousting in Ferraris"

And using high-grade, hardenable materials (as Mac has done here) greatly reduces the amount of abuse this suit would actually be affected by. Making something like this in mild steel would just be setting yourself up for heartbreak; so many labor hours poured into a piece that could be so easily damaged.

Ckanite,
I'm sure Mac can attest to the durability, but from what I have heard, Capwell's beautiful black harness of English armour that Mac made was heavily used for several years of jousting, and at the end of that was cosmetically pretty worn (lots of small scratches in the surface finishing from being struck with lances at what? 50+mph? Loonies, he lot of 'em ), but in terms of structural integrity, was completely sound.

But then again, it is very much akin to doing a demolition derby in lamborghinis... any sane person would be sobbing, going "no! not to my pretties!"

Oh, I'm very sure that it can withstand combat, especially the alloys that Mac is using. I would still flinch though...

My wallet cannot keep up with my mouth, but I have always had the opinion that things like this are to use, not to look at. I shoot all my guns, for example. Maybe some day I will have enough money to buy artwork for looking at but for now it's all for use.

Steve

running away yelling "no! not my preciousssss!" is use, right?

it would be a difficult choice, I must admit. Keep it intact, as a work of art, or put it to use. So clearly the only solution is to buy two...

My thoughts exactly! You can never have enough armor!

Scott Martin wrote:Very pretty Mac, I suspect that your scrap bucket will remain ful of pieces that many of us woud like to be able to make [and you said] if your scrap bin didn't see a lot of use you probably weren't learning much...

You spend steel to buy learning.

For any of us that would like to cut just like Mac, DeWalt's DW317K Compact Electric Jig Saw Kit looks like the current model; Mac's in the picture looks like it might be an older model.

Steve S. wrote:My wallet cannot keep up with my mouth, but I have always had the opinion that things like this are to use, not to look at. I shoot all my guns, for example. Maybe some day I will have enough money to buy artwork for looking at but for now it's all for use.

Steve

Applied arts.

Konstantin the Red wrote: For any of us that would like to cut just like Mac, DeWalt's DW317K Compact Electric Jig Saw Kit looks like the current model; Mac's in the picture looks like it might be an older model.

The DW 317K is available at Lowes and Home Depot for about $99. The one Konstantin linked to says it includes a kit box, so the contents of that may make up for the difference in price.

Been saying it for years...bandsaw....

Chris Gilman wrote:Been saying it for years...bandsaw....

Thats the way to do it.

Mac,

As you well know, late 15th century mail is much on my mind and workbench of late.
Due to this, I can't help but notice that St. Florian seems to be wearing both a brayette and a mail fauld.
Is it your plan to have both for this harness?
This is not something I have noticed in other art.
I have not had a chance to re-look at other images to see if it is just another missed detail that is there more widely, just un-noticed.

Good eye Tom! First time I ever saw that combo. Glad you brought it to our attention. Just when I think I forgot it all, I learn something new...to forget! LOL.

Tom,

The finished armor will have both a skirt and a breyette. I really don't know how common this was, but it does not strike me as strange.

Mac

The famous gilt copper alloy effigy of Sir Richard Beauchamp at Warwick (constructed 1449-51) also shows a brayette worn under the mail skirt.

In the case of the St Maurice it would make sense especially if the skirt, which looks to be quite short, were sewn onto the lowermost lame of the cuirass skirt, in the Italian manner. Then the brayette is a core mail element comprising part of the undergarments, and then the skirt comes along as part of the cuirass.

Not the only way to do it of course...

Toby wrote:
In the case of the St Maurice it would make sense especially if the skirt, which looks to be quite short, were sewn onto the lowermost lame of the cuirass skirt, in the Italian manner. Then the brayette is a core mail element comprising part of the undergarments, and then the skirt comes along as part of the cuirass.

Not the only way to do it of course...

I was thinking that might be the case with St. Florian and posted as much some where earlier in the thread. In addition to being short it seems to hang out from the legs, which would suggest suspension from the cuirass.

Howdy stranger!

I decided to make the skirt as a garment because the back view did not seem to support the idea that it should be attached to the fauld and cullet. There is space between the plate and the mail.



Since then, I have concluded that the sculptor probably originally intended to represent the cullet with a buckle-on-butt-tasset, but then lost track of this as he worked. In light of that, I might should reevaluate the idea of attaching the mail to the plate. I will look at the pics and report back.

Mac

I am turning my attention to the mail sleeves. Yesterday, Will McLean (Galleron) came by to serve again as a double for my Patron. The sleeves fit OK, but I will need to make some adjustments.

The plan is to make the sleeves into a garment like this one in Berlin.



I used a bunch of nylon lace to secure the sleeves to "G".



The trick seems to be getting the tension across the back correct. If there is too much tension at the bottom, it restricts arm movement.

I used cardboard to template the "vest".


The current plan is to sew a mock up of the vest in tent canvas (because is is what I have to hand) and mount the sleeves temporarily on that. If that looks good at the next fitting with "G", I will sent that off to my Patron to try. Once I see how it fits him, I will make a nicer vest in heavy linen or hemp canvas and mount the sleeves on that.

Mac

Last night I began mind-numbing task of finding and fixing all the bad rings in the Indian mail. I replaced a dozen or so rings and put a hundred or so of rivets in empty holes. This part of the process will probably take a couple more days to complete. Once that's done, I can replace my temporary tailoring rings with riveted ones.

Mac

I too feel your pain.

Mac wrote:Last night I began mind-numbing task of finding and fixing all the bad rings in the Indian mail. I replaced a dozen or so rings and put a hundred or so of rivets in empty holes. This part of the process will probably take a couple more days to complete. Once that's done, I can replace my temporary tailoring rings with riveted ones.

Mac

I'm still working on the Indian mail. I put in a couple of hours per day setting rivets and replacing rings that are beyond salvation. In a few more days I should be able to start making the vest to sew them to.

Mac

I figured that's why this thread was dark... Any chance you'll be able to tell us the type of maille you're using any why you choose that, maybe with some pictures, as opposed to getting maille from someone else that has less defects?

Last night I began mind-numbing task of finding and fixing all the bad rings in the Indian mail. I replaced a dozen or so rings and put a hundred or so of rivets in empty holes

This annoys me. When I was importing from the guys I taught how to make it, I inspected every incoming garment. And they were all tumbled clean and so "torture tested" and we inspected them for lost rivets and sprung rings prior to selling them, and I complained to my supplier when things were not right.

I suspect a lot of the suppliers now are selling to vendors who don't even unwrap them before shipping them on to end customers.

If you don't sit on these guys for quality it may slip. When I ordered loose rings and rivets I'd probably find 1-20 rings that were supposed to be pierced for the rivet but were not. I often wondered if the punching workers just threw a few unpunched into the bag at the end of the day or whatever.

Steve

Mac,

When you examined Wade's mail sleeves, did you look in the body portion over the shoulders for expansions? These are normal in shirts, but I didn't recall if they were in the sleeves.

I think I see where you are headed, Ernst. I did not look specifically for expansions or contractions in the shoulder/chest parts, but I am confident that I would have seen them if there were any. After a bit ones eye just goes to these things.

So, I suppose we can conclude that they were built as sleeves right from the start, and not just cut from a habergeon.

Mac

Mac wrote:The trick seems to be getting the tension across the back correct. If there is too much tension at the bottom, it restricts arm movement.

It seems to me that the tailoring over the shoulders is somewhat designed to alleviate this in shirts. The only difference is that you are replacing the back fabric of mail with a back fabric of cloth, but those expansions don't usually occur that far into the shirt to warrant replacement. Then again, I've never tried making separate sleeves. Before your analysis, most people presumed that left and right were interchangeable, which is also not the case.

Ernst,

As you say, I am swapping in fabric for mail. The thing where the back of this "vest" is broader than the front is pretty much what the shoulder blade expansions in a mail shirt are there to achieve.

Strangely enough, it was tension in the lower half of the thing that limited forward arm movement. That's at the very bottom of, or perhaps below where the usual shoulder blade expansions end.

When he let his arms hang at his sides, the tension was all at the top of the back near the base of the neck. (no surprise there) Bringing his arms straight forward made the upper back go slack and the lower back become tense. I suppose that if this were part of a habergeon, there would already be enough there already. In any case, it's a thing I will keep an eye out for in the future.

Mac

I spent a few more hours fixing the mail on the left sleeve. About one ring in five needs to have its rivet squeezed and one ring in twenty of those needs to have the rivet pressed home first. Of those, about one in five needs to have its rivet pulled out and replaced. For every rivet I replace, I probably put four into empty holes. Overall, I would guess that one ring in two hundred is hopeless and needs to be replaced altogether.

Perhaps I'll do some more of this Sisyphean task after diner.

Mac

A couple more hours this evening. I'm getting pretty fast at fixing this stuff, but there's still a lot to do.

Mac

Hey Mac, would you mind showing us your maille making tools? Do you make your own rivets and rings also?

Tableau wrote:Hey Mac, would you mind showing us your maille making tools? Do you make your own rivets and rings also?

He did not make these rings or rivets.
The sleeves were built from Indian made mail, hense the quality issues.
If I recall correctly he cut up some chausses and pieced these together.
Although I do think he is experimenting with makeing everything himself.

Tableau,

Tom has the gist of it, except I always put "chauses" in quote marks when talking about those things. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=153824&

The sleeve on the right in the fitting pics was the one I made as an exemplar for the ill fated attempt to get improved sleeves out of India. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157253& The one on the left is the first and only counter-sample from that project.

Mac

Steve S. wrote:

Last night I began mind-numbing task of finding and fixing all the bad rings in the Indian mail. I replaced a dozen or so rings and put a hundred or so of rivets in empty holes

This annoys me. When I was importing from the guys I taught how to make it, I inspected every incoming garment. And they were all tumbled clean and so "torture tested" and we inspected them for lost rivets and sprung rings prior to selling them, and I complained to my supplier when things were not right.

I suspect a lot of the suppliers now are selling to vendors who don't even unwrap them before shipping them on to end customers.

If you don't sit on these guys for quality it may slip. When I ordered loose rings and rivets I'd probably find 1-20 rings that were supposed to be pierced for the rivet but were not. I often wondered if the punching workers just threw a few unpunched into the bag at the end of the day or whatever.

Steve

All the stuff I have seen for sale in person has been in a tape reinforced bag, coated in cosmoline. I doubt that most vendors are opening each one of these for a quality inspection.

Mac's appraisal of how much fix it work there is seems spot on with the pieces I have handled.

Yesterday, I took a little break from the drudgerous life of the chainmail wallah to work on a project for Galleron. Being on tap a body double for armor fittings is not very exciting, so I have to keep a steady trickle of goodies headed his way.

This is the new weather vane for his tent. The ball and staff are gilt wood. The vane 6" x 8" and made of .025" brass shim stock. There is a brass disc between the staff and the vane to serve as a bearing. The rod will get replaced with a brass one, but I could not get the stock in time for his event this weekend.



Mac