Dusting off the cobwebs

[MJBlazek]

That's awesome!

[Ckanite]

Very nicely done!

[Mac]

Thank you, guys!

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

Wow that looks very nice Mac!

[Alex Baird]

Is that leaf gilded?

[Mac]

Thank you, Randall!

Alex,

The gold on the wood is 23K leaf. I used loose leaf on the ball, and transfer leaf on the staff. I have to admit, the transfer stuff is a lot easier to handle. I think I will use it again next time I try gilding wood.

I had a certain amount of trouble getting the results to be really shiny. Upon reflection, ( ) I think one of the problems was putting the size on to thickly. This may have kept me from getting the gold to be as smooth as the ground.

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

" Upon reflection"

Ba-dum-bum-bum. I have never heard of this material but it sounds very interesting.

RPM

[Jacob]

Excellent. I used "metallic gold paint" for my ball finial and was not terribly happy with it. This looks great on the wood.

[Galleron]

Here is another view of the lovely vane and ball:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... ilion.html

[Tom B.]

Wow, Galleron must be a keen negotiator.
"Oh no Mac I couldn't possibly come over and try on the unbelievably awesome armour you are making, again."

I am sure there are many inconveniences, unknown to those of us viewing only through this thread, to being Mac's live armour manikin.

[Galleron]

Wow, Galleron must be a keen negotiator.
"Oh no Mac I couldn't possibly come over and try on the unbelievably awesome armour you are making, again."

I am sure there are many inconveniences, unknown to those of us viewing only through this thread, to being Mac's live armour manikin.

I have no intention of driving a hard bargain with Mac, as I hope he knows.

But this raises a question I would like to ask. Individually fitted armor is the ideal, yet here I am serving as a mannequin for another man. I have read several medieval accounts of armor being loaned for various deeds of arms, and a robust trade in used armor after battles. If you wanted to be able to arm 90% of the people that wanted to borrow armor reasonably well, how many different harnesses would you need?

[Signo]

This is an interesting question. I think that during the XV° century industrialization mindset spread in the armour production. There are a lot of ways to make armour parts of various sizes without actually need to custom make them. Even for critical parts like arms and legs, you can combine different sized parts with little effort.
The easiest thing is obviously with cannon length, this is a no brainer, but even for cannon width, there is no need to make a elbow size for each cannon size.
Probably ,with differently sized parts, you can achieve a result that is very similar to custom sizing.
This remind me how military full dress uniform are made (at least in Italy) : there are a number of basic sizes that are not "finished" is some strategic spots, when the tailor have a soldier to dress, he choose the basic size, and then, simply cutting some thread and marking sleeve and pants length can make the uniform fit almost every militarygrade bodyshape.

[Johann ColdIron]

Wow, Galleron must be a keen negotiator.
"Oh no Mac I couldn't possibly come over and try on the unbelievably awesome armour you are making, again."

I am sure there are many inconveniences, unknown to those of us viewing only through this thread, to being Mac's live armour manikin.

I have no intention of driving a hard bargain with Mac, as I hope he knows.

But this raises a question I would like to ask. Individually fitted armor is the ideal, yet here I am serving as a mannequin for another man. I have read several medieval accounts of armor being loaned for various deeds of arms, and a robust trade in used armor after battles. If you wanted to be able to arm 90% of the people that wanted to borrow armor reasonably well, how many different harnesses would you need?

So, kinda like bowling shoes?

It would be interesting to see if there was a "cobbler" class of Armourer. Not making new pieces but converting them to fit new people.

[wcallen]

I guess I am in a little bit of a snide mood this morning... so I will answer the fit question in an odd way.

Look how well fitted much of the armour in the SCA actually is.

Given that, we have proof that it is possible for many people to wear armour that doesn't fit the way a custom piece really should fit. So there is at least a reasonable amount of flexibility in sizing.

On a slightly nicer note, I think I watched someone fight in a full Italian mid 15th c. harness that was to big for them this weekend. It seemed to work. Not perfect, but he could move and do what he needed to. It wasn't 5 sizes to large, but it sure looked like it was being compressed on him. Maybe he lost weight, maybe the fit wasn't right in the beginning.

Back to a more normal answer... There was a lot of lower quality armour that didn't need to fit as well. When you build "splint" arms and knee length (or shorter) tassets that hang from short faulds, you can get a lot more flexibility from armour than if you build fully encased pieces where all the parts connect up. If you make the neck a little wide on the gorget, it will "fit" more people. If you make the backplate pretty thin, it can bend as it is tightened into the breastplate with the waist belt. You definitely don't have one-size-fits-all armour that way, but I expect you can get a-few-sizes-fit-many.

Wade

[Signo]

Agree, today production is too little to notice this, so most armourer make custom sized items.
On this topic I've a thing to say.
Two years ago we have commissioned 2 armours, composed of greathelm and full torso.
We had divided the people to fit into the armour in two groups, based on similar sizing. One group was composed of people around 90-100 Kgs , and the other was composed of people from 75-85 Kgs.
The interesting thing is that is quite difficult to see which piece is of which suit when it's all disassembled, as they differ very little, but once assembled, they fit their customers just fine.

[Tom B.]

The trick seems to be getting the tension across the back correct. If there is too much tension at the bottom, it restricts arm movement.

It seems to me that the tailoring over the shoulders is somewhat designed to alleviate this in shirts. The only difference is that you are replacing the back fabric of mail with a back fabric of cloth, but those expansions don't usually occur that far into the shirt to warrant replacement. Then again, I've never tried making separate sleeves. Before your analysis, most people presumed that left and right were interchangeable, which is also not the case.

I spent some time with one of Wade's sleeves last Thursday
I can definitively say that there is no tailoring in the "body" section.

[Mac]

Here is the first generation mock up of the vest with the sleeves sewn onto it. The left still needs some work. The lower edge is a couple of rows shorter than the right one, and I still need to remove a bit of baggyness from the upper arm.



Tomorrow afternoon, "G" will be over to try them on. That should tell me what modifications I need to make on the MKII vest.

Mac

[Ernst]

The trick seems to be getting the tension across the back correct. If there is too much tension at the bottom, it restricts arm movement.

It seems to me that the tailoring over the shoulders is somewhat designed to alleviate this in shirts. The only difference is that you are replacing the back fabric of mail with a back fabric of cloth, but those expansions don't usually occur that far into the shirt to warrant replacement. Then again, I've never tried making separate sleeves. Before your analysis, most people presumed that left and right were interchangeable, which is also not the case.

I spent some time with one of Wade's sleeves last Thursday
I can definitively say that there is no tailoring in the "body" section.

Thanks Tom. It was one of those unanswered questions as to whether there were expansions from collar bone to shoulder blade or not, as is usually seen in shirts. Now we have a definitive NO.

[Tom B.]

Mac,

Is that a bent metal wire loop at the top right opposite of the stitched eyelets, on the DHM original?
Looks like you put some of your pewter eyelets to good use on yours

[Mac]

Tom,

I can't tell what's happening there. The pic is to blurry. For what it's worth, though, Dr. Luken's description suggests that the one side has eyelets and the other has "small holes where laces were probably fastened". (små hål där troligen snören/snörlåsen var fästade)

The other thing he seems to say is that the back is two thicknesses of linen. "Ryggstycket mellan ärmarna består av dubbla lager linne". I had not caught this, and just used one layer. That seemed a bit cheesy, so I put a facing in the back of the neck at the last minute. (literally... one of the sleeves was half sewn on already) Subsequent versions will have the back in two layers.

Mac,

Looks like you put some of your pewter eyelets to good use on yours

The final version will probably have stitched-in eyelets, the prototypes get pewter because its easy and fast. Dansknect may be able to sew an eyelet in 60 sec, but I sure can't! viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174573&p=2666660#p2666660 That does, by the way, show what practice can do for you. I imagine that by the time he's finished that project he will be faster yet. I wonder if he would like to sew me eyelets for me.....

Note also; the gratuitous of red cordura bootlace. I have a big old roll of that stuff, so it gets used for everything. The final version will get something nicer.

Mac

[Mac]

Yesterday's fitting with "G" went pretty well. The overall size of the vest seems good, and there are only a couple of changes I will make for the next one.

I had a bit of trouble sewing the sleeves on evenly. This is mostly because I did not mark out the stitching locations. In addition to that, the left sleeve is two rows shorter.



Here in the back, you can see some puckering in the fabric at the shoulders. That's about having the mail sewn on too "tight". I need to let the rings be a bit closer together.



The shoulders can be pointed directly to the vest. In this mock up there are only two layers of fabric there, but in the next one I will have a couple more. G likes to have the bevor on so that the pauldrons don't smack him in the throat during the "range of motion" tests. Note again: the gratuitous use of red bootlace.



The mail disappearing into the upper cannons and then reemerging at the elbow looks good.



This is about how much the forearms will be shortened by. We weighed the offcuts and found that this will be a savings of almost two pounds.



The region delineated by the six white twist-ties is what I plan to cut out and replace with more fabric. This will save weight, improve comfort and wearibility, and save another couple of pounds. I am pretty sure that this is what's going on in the Hastings MS. It's that brown area on his right upper arm.



I started in on the next prototype vest last night, and I expect to have that ready for the sleeves later today. In the mean time, I will work a bit more on the mail. There are still some bad rings to fix, and another two rows to add to the bottom of the left one.

Mac

[Ckanite]

How will that effect the fit of the upper cannons? With the fabric you'll have more space but won't the forces travel across the plate and into the flesh at the edges of the maille?

[Mac]

How will that effect the fit of the upper cannons?

It should improve the fit. The lames/tubes of these upper cannons intrude into the "living space" quite a bit when the arms are brought across the chest. Taking out a bit of unnecessary bulk should be all to the good.

With the fabric you'll have more space but won't the forces travel across the plate and into the flesh at the edges of the maille?

I am having trouble seeing any potential problem... Perhaps I am not understanding you. Can you say that a different way?

Mac

[Ckanite]

Let me get a sketch together and I'll throw it up...

[Ckanite]

Here's what I'm thinking in as simple terms as I can think of...

[Arrakis]

Here's what I'm thinking in as simple terms as I can think of...

I think the cylindrical bearing surfaces prevent such impingement. Consider the support the sides and back of the cannon will provide during that impact.

[Mac]

OK. I think I see what you are getting at. You are concerned that the interrupted edges of the mail are themselves structures that can be driven into the body.

In general I do not think it is any trouble. For the most part, the places where the edges of the mail bear are fleshy and will not be harmed at all.

The only places where this effect might be of concern are those where bone lies directly under the skin. In this case that would be the top of the shoulder, where the end of the clavicle meets the acromion process of the scapula. That area is notoriously bony, and the pauldrons will rest heavily there. My plan is to try to end the mail above that point. One of the reasons for removing mail under the pauldrons at all is to avoid having mail impinging on the bony part of the shoulder.

Mac

[Ckanite]

Yeah. That was my thought process at least.

[Tom B.]

Mac,

A couple of questions about your weight savings measures.
Is the estimated 4lb number per sleeve or total for both sleeves?
How much of an overlap between the mail and the plate are you planning on?

Again thanks for pioneering this for me

[Mac]

I am hoping to pull 2 lb. off of each sleeve; one from the forearm and another from the upper arm. I am sure of the amount from the forearm, because the offcuts have been on the scale. I am only guessing about how much the patch I plan to remove from the upper arm will weigh. I hope to know that by tomorrow, or perhaps later this evening.

Mac

[Pitbull Armory]

Thank you for sharing your work Mac, Its a blessing,


Have a good weekend


Pb

[Mac]

Just a quick note to say that I am still alive.

I spend a few hours every day fixing rings that the chain mail wallahs failed to do properly. The result of hunching over the work has got my back all in spasms. Today I found my old darkroom timer, and I am using that to tell me to take a little break every 30 minutes. The timer really needs to be cleaned, oiled, and set "in beat". Perhaps I will at least get some oil into it later today.

Mac

[Arrakis]

If you can, try foam rolling (cheap on Amazon) or rolling on a lacrosse ball (even cheaper). It can really loosen up your muscles, even knots and trigger points!

[Duane W]

I had similar problems tailoring my aventail. I came up from the shop after several hours of wrestling tiny wedges in to improperly punched links and not getting as far as I'd like to , I told my kids they would all starve to death if I was a mail wallah.

[Mac]

I used one of my breaks to pull the timer out of its case and get a bit of clock oil on all the pivots and the mainspring. It really needs cleaning, but realistically, I doubt that's ever going to happen. It could also use to have the "endshake" reduced on the balance wheel arbor. That would be a simple thing to do, but it would require a bit more disassemble than I am willing to do right now. The fresh oil has had a good effect on the balance amplitude, and that has made the beat issues much less noticeable.

Mac