Dusting off the cobwebs

Estervig · Post by **Estervig** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:43 pm

I have a question about the maille at the elbow. I once saw a maille sleeve ages ago at the MIA that had a pronounced pitch to the sleeve, by which I mean if you look at the arm from the side below the elbow the wrist tilts forward.
_ (top of sleeve)
| | (upper arm)
/ / (Forearm)

I would imagine the pitch was achieved by having more rows over the back of the elbow and fewer at the interior of the elbow. I can't find a picture of the one I'm thinking of, but it was child sized and gold edged which makes me wonder if there is any evidence of sleeve pitch in maille elsewhere that you have noticed?

Considering the extreme allowance for elbow movement in 14th century sleeves, I wouldn't think it unlikely to find similar technology in patterning maille.

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:46 pm

Welcome, Estervig!

These threads will be very helpful to you, I think.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=171813
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157253

Estervig · Post by **Estervig** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:29 pm

Thank you! That's exactly what I was wondering.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:01 pm

OK, I'm back at it. This winter has not been a productive one for me. Between the flu and depression, I lost quite a bit of time.

A couple of months ago, I had the idea to change the mail standard, and that's what I'm up to today. My initial construct involved two different batches of 10mm flat ring mail. The stuff I used for the collar was just a bit denser than what I used for the cape. The resulting effect was not worth the effort of having done it. Yesterday I started to replace the collar part with 6mm demi-closed fabric.

Here is the new collar sitting next to the standard. You can just barely see the difference between the two fabrics I used originally, but the 6mm should really make a better visual impression.

I cut the collar part out, and I am getting ready to knit the new collar in.

The only catch at the moment is that the row slopes do not match. After lunch I will cut one more row out of the upper edge of the cape, and that should do the trick. I hope it will not need to have another row added to the bottom to compensate. We'll see.

Mac

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:46 pm

I'm very glad that you're back at it Mac!

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:13 pm

Glad to see you moving again, Mac. You aren't the only one that winter beat upon. Looking forward to seeing more of your craft.

Kristoffer · Post by **Kristoffer** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:25 pm

Belemrys · Post by **Belemrys** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:00 pm

Best and most accurate meme ever!

Zetheros · Post by **Zetheros** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:44 pm

Don't be depressed, mac! Do something fun and try not to over-think everything (fun is spoiled when one thinks too much). We all love you! Hope you get well soon!

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:50 pm

Thank you for your support, guys! It means a lot to me.

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:55 pm

I had some trouble trying to figure out how to get the two different gauges of mail to come together, so a made up a little sample by connecting them with brass rings. It turns out that if you joining with the larger size, you need to do two with a normal four in one, and then put in one that grabs three small rings and two big ones. So... two.. two... three etc.

More tomorrow.

Mac

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:00 am

Clever! And a very clean result.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:03 am

I got the new collar stitched on, but there are two issues. The first is that the new collar is a bit longer than the previous one. I knew it was, but I figured I would attache it first and than trim it. The second is that I ended up with a sort of shortfall in the cape. Perhaps the pattern I used to connect the two different gauges of mail was not the optimal one, and the cape ended up gathered a bit.

By putting in some brass rings, we can see that what's needed to extend the cape is five more columns of mail on each side.

Mac

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:29 am

Looks GREAT! Well done!

Arrakis · Post by **Arrakis** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:43 am

Fascinating, as always.

For me, this thread is also a continual reminder to slow down, work deliberately, and get it right, even if that means redoing some pieces.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:15 pm

The easiest way to make up the shortfall is to patch in a strip of mail on each side. I needed 5 more columns, so a snipped out one, and added 4. This involves a lot less ring riveting than just adding on to the diagonal edge ring by ring.

Bibimbap, and it's done.

I neglected to photograph the part where I trimmed the collar.

Mac.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:56 pm

Putting the standard on, I find that the collar sags quite a bit. It's going to need a lining.

As a test, I cut out a likely sized rectangle of hemp "tickin" and hemmed it up on the sewing maching.....

....and then sewed it to the upper row of collar rings. Since it's only a test, I did not fuss with getting the size right, or even getting the ends square.

The results are very encouraging. The edge behaves its self and the collar looks pretty respectable. The white color of the test fabric does not enhance the appearance, though. For the final lining, I am thinking about wrapping a heavy fabric in red silk. That might look nice.

The back view shows where I have to be careful not to let the lining extend past the edge of the mail. It will also need a hook to keep the underlap from sagging.

Mac

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:46 am

Mac, that collar looks beautiful! I'm impressed with how much that small bit of fabric helped

Chuck Davis · Post by **Chuck Davis** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:42 am

Damn nice.

Like the hair too! Looks a lot like mine!

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:55 am

I wish we could get our friends in India to make some denser mail in more similar sizes, but until that happens, I think you have managed to come up with a method to create a collar that looks much more like the real collars than any other I have seen.

Great job.

I have lots of 6mm stuff, I guess I will need to strip some bits of larger ring galv. I have from a previous project for the drape (looser rings) and cut some of the 6mm stuff up and make myself a collar. It would be fun to have a collar to go with some of my armour. It would definitely fill in a glaring gap in my messy 15th c. suit.

Wade

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:29 am

wcallen wrote:I wish we could get our friends in India to make some denser mail in more similar sizes

I am still working on that.

I hope to have some samples in a month or two.
I will keep you guys updated.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:45 pm

Thanks, guys!

@ Ckanite. It's surprising, isn't it! A little bit of fabric, and it sits up and begs.

@Chuck D. I still think of my hair as "brown". I guess I'm in denial.

@ Wade. I just hope it does not go against some little known Levitican prohibition about mixing different sorts of mail. I would not like to be leading us into abomination.

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:10 pm

I just went through the pics of mail neck defenses in Tom B's pinterest page https://www.pinterest.com/tbiliter/medi ... nt-in-art/ looking for hooks and making little sketches and notes.

Hooks seem to come in a range of shapes, but out sample size is small, and it's hard to know what it truly typical, or what shapes might be linked to times or places. Most feature a decorative knop of some sort on the end, and that seems attractive. A couple of them are more or less sharp on the end, and that seems like trouble.

In some cases, the hook covers the mounting rivet. This allows for a shorter distance from the rivet to the bend. That's probably strong, but the rivet has to be set before the hook gets bent into its final shape. In others, the rivet is below the end of the hook. This allows the hook to be shaped before it is riveted to the mail. That seems more convenient for my purposes, since I would like to be able to remove it before I am done. In the cases of the two specimens which are broken, we can see from the distance to the upper edge of the mail that there was one of each of these types.

We have two examples of a knop in the shape of a scallop shell, and one example of a mounting plate in the form of a leaf. I like the idea of doing something fancy here, but I would like to tie it into the rest of the armor. After a bit of doodling I thought of the fleur de lis motif on the armor. In particular the pendant fleur on the ends of the demigreaves.

I realize that, historically, there is no reason to expect the plate armorer to be working with the mail maker, and that this sort of continuity of theme is a bit of a wank. But this is the only hook that anyone is likely to notice on whole armor and I want to make it pretty. I promise to make the hooks on the brayette be more boring.

Mac

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:30 pm

That's an exciting looking hook! It has a liveliness in its lines. Are you cutting and filing it out of a scrap of thick sheet, or taking the time to smith it out of a piece of barstock?

Jonathon Janusz · Post by **Jonathon Janusz** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:31 pm

wcallen wrote:I wish we could get our friends in India to make some denser mail in more similar sizes...

Sorry for being dense, but Wade, could you clarify what you mean (or Tom, as it seems he's on the warpath to getting this request granted). Are you suggesting, say 6mm rings worked in both 4-1 and 6-1 weave? 6mm rings made 4-1 but in different diameter wire? Something other that I'm missing?

Mac, regarding the fabric, I wouldn't have thought to have it done without a liner; even with a dense weave that could stand on its own, bare rings against skin (aside from the acidity of sweat on the metal) is at best not enjoyable (hot or cold) and at worst unbearable.

Elaborating on the build of the collar, I have wondered if a thin leather of some sort to attach the rings to and itself also acting as a mounting tab to 'point' a fabric/padded/liner collar to might work out well? It would allow the fabric bits to be easily removed for cleaning (of both the fabric and mail, actually now that I think of it) without having to redo the stitching to the mail or just foregoing the cleaning altogether.

Last, as to the color of the liner, might I suggest matching the color of the doublet assuming it is something other than red? I've also seen folks do a contrasting color between the liner body and the hem at the top of the collar to nice effect.

Sorry that the winter got you down; I'm like a lot of of others here in the same boat, for some reason the new year started grinding away on us early. At least the weather (hopefully) is close to breaking and we can all get some fresh air and sun.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:07 pm

Jonathon Janusz wrote:
wcallen wrote:I wish we could get our friends in India to make some denser mail in more similar sizes...
Sorry for being dense, but Wade, could you clarify what you mean (or Tom, as it seems he's on the warpath to getting this request granted). Are you suggesting, say 6mm rings worked in both 4-1 and 6-1 weave? 6mm rings made 4-1 but in different diameter wire? Something other that I'm missing?

I am suggesting similar diameter, with thicker wire. That appears to be what was most common. For example, take a look at this collar and mail fabric:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-10.html

It stands up by itself. A liner would make it more comfortable, but it isn't strictly necessary for it to stand up.

Wade

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:21 pm

I started by cutting out a template and bending it into a hook to make sure of the length.

My first thought was to use something like 12ga., but then I found a piece of 14, and it looked plenty thick enough, so I used that. (by the time I was done, I was thinking that 16ga would have been just fine)

The area between the lines is there the bend will be, and I want that to remain the full thickness.

This shows where I have thinned the area where the fleur will be by hammering it a bit.

After the thinning, the end needed to be trimmed back to the starting size.

Some layout lines and the locations of the holes.

I don't have a punch in 7/64", so I had to drill the holes. Here is my newest hand vise. I have a small collection of them. This is probably the first time someone has used this tool in a half century or more.

I roughed in the shape with a Dremel cutoff wheel, and followed that with files.

It needed a bit of bossing up from the back. It turns out that my choice of thicknesses is sort of betwixt and between. It's a bit too thick to conveniently boss up without resorting to pitch and chasing tools... but it's too thin to just grind in the relief.

I filed the shank narrower so that I could thin it and spread it under the hammer.

A bit more work with needle files in the holes and then it got polished and bent into shape.. and then polished a bit more.

I made a guess about where it aught to go, and riveted it in place. Even though it's only temporary, I had to use a rivet because there's no room for a bolt. There is a washer there so I can grind the rivet away to dismount it again.

It looks like it will work fine. Marianne took this pic., so the focus and composition are better than in the selfies I took earlier today.

Before I wrapped up for the evening, I took a couple of minutes with a fine wire wheel and WD40, and made the old hand vise look a bit nicer. I hope to find a better washer for it, but this is better than nothing for now.

Mac

Kristoffer · Post by **Kristoffer** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:08 am

I picked up a vice like that from a garage sale a while back. Pretty handy tool to have.

Would it be wrong to rivet the straps on the inside of the maille? I believe it would give a smoother appearance to the collar? The strap could perhaps even be sewn to the lining and held in place with a rivet..

Nicknizh · Post by **Nicknizh** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:25 am

Nice to see you back on track, Mac. I have a question regarding the hook, does it hold the collar together just by friction?

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:40 am

It keeps the underlapped edge in place, and not dropping down your neck like a shirt tag made from a cheese grater.

Jonathon Janusz · Post by **Jonathon Janusz** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:49 am

Wade, thanks for the clarification.

Mac, that hand vice is so cute! I should put finding one on my list of things to do as I already thought of a few places it would come in handy. I'm probably weird in thinking that miniature tools are neat; last I remember was a couple of tiny (working) anvils that if I had the room for collecting things, I would probably have a half dozen of by now.

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:10 am

Jonathon Janusz wrote:Wade, thanks for the clarification.

To add a bit to what Wade said.
Take a look through the standards on my Pinterest board here: Medieval Mail Collars

And these two threads:
Discussion of extant mail standards
Discussion Pizan vs Standard: what is the difference?

On the standards you can see the super dense weave on the collar and how it is different from the body / cape section.
Usually this is done by increasing the diameter of the wire the links are made from, the ring diameter can also be smaller but not necessarily. As Wade said it is most common to keep the 4 in 1 pattern but there are a few examples of 6 in 1.

Here is the most notable example of 6 in 1 on the collar, it is from the British Museum.

Chuck Davis · Post by **Chuck Davis** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:16 am

This is some of the finest 6mm maille I have ever seen. Too bad I can't get the person I got it from to tell me where it was made, and by whom.

and here is the SCA maille collar I made with it. Not quite as historical as yours Mac

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:25 am

Mac,

An impressive bit of work, as usual!

I have been planning on make a few hooks myself but have not had a chance to yet.
Your step by step photos and explanations have undoubtably saved me some frustration.
I plan to try both the scallop shell and the leaf examples.

I at least need to doll up my personal mail pieces and make some photo essays to provide to the guys I am makeing stuff for.
If my sample hooks go well then maybe I can add them to my offerings

As always I do have a question:
It looks like you have chosen the overlap direction to be the opposite of the majority of our slim extant samples.
It looks like most of them have the buckle and hook on the wearers left.
Obviously you have not permanently attached anything yet so it could easily be changed.

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:28 am

Chuck Davis wrote:This is some of the finest 6mm maille I have ever seen. Too bad I can't get the person I got it from to tell me where it was made, and by whom.

Wow those are some pretty nice rings!
It would be nice to know their source.

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