The Armour Archive

I hope I'm not rushing in where Angles fear to tread, but this is how I envision things....

--The hosen will be trussed up to the edges of the the doublet skirt as is normal for the period
--The waist band of the mail breyette will be cinched up at about the same level. That should be about the "blue jeans waist". The breyette will, of course, be over the hosen. If the breyette needs to be tied to stay in place, it can share points with the hosen.
--The leg armor will have its own points, and these will be located in between the hosen points.
--The leg armor points will emerge between the edge of the skirt and the tops of the hosen and proceed over the outside of the mail breyette.
--The cuisses will overlap the mail breyette.
--The waist band of the mail skirt will sit over the doublet, just under the natural waist. The mail skirt will be over top of everything previously mentioned.
--If the mail skirt will not sit there in an orderly way, it can be tied to the outside of the doublet skirt with points provided for that purpose alone.


Mac

Mac wrote:I hope I'm not rushing in where Angles fear to tread, but this is how I envision things....

--The hosen will be trussed up to the edges of the the doublet skirt as is normal for the period
--The waist band of the mail breyette will be cinched up at about the same level. That should be about the "blue jeans waist". The breyette will, of course, be over the hosen. If the breyette needs to be tied to stay in place, it can share points with the hosen.
--The leg armor will have its own points, and these will be located in between the hosen points.
--The leg armor points will emerge between the edge of the skirt and the tops of the hosen and proceed over the outside of the mail breyette.
--The cuisses will overlap the mail breyette.
--The waist band of the mail skirt will sit over the doublet, just under the natural waist. The mail skirt will be over top of everything previously mentioned.
--If the mail skirt will not sit there in an orderly way, it can be tied to the outside of the doublet skirt with points provided for that purpose alone.


Mac

Thanks Mac.

Basically that is a much better described and detailed version of my Scenario C

That is some great looking maille Mac. I cant wait to see it together with the rest of the armour.

Thank you, Xt!

Mac

I had been dissatisfied with the slit in the side of the mail skirt. It gapped a bit in the middle, so I decided it needed an overlap.

I started by patching in a total of three columns, but in the end I added another to the free edge.



When I put the mail onto its final waist band, I will gather it up a bit so that the overlap lines up with the end of the band. For now, this is what it looks like.



Down at the end, there are three (or four?) rings that join the two layers of mail. That makes it nice an tidy.



If the slit still gaps at the fitting next week, I will put a hook, or a strap and buckle on it.

Mac

Mac wrote:

Tableau wrote:Mac, I'm happy to see that you're back at this. I'm sorry the winter has been so hard on you. It was a tough one for me too. I hope the spring finds you soon.

Thank you, Tab!

It's surprising, how many folks here have some sort of depression. It seems to come with the territory somehow.

Mac

Every armourer I know well has issues with depression, except for one who's more prone to rage. I think it's probably something about the critical eye needed to do it well that we also turn on ourselves.
The more 'casual', less obsessive armourers - some of whom are excellent! - seem to be happier.
I find that picking up the hammer and making armour almost always raises my spirits, but it's hardest to pick up the hammer with a purpose when I am most depressed. Hell of a catch-22!
It is inspiring to see your work, even more so to see you return to this one, so long delayed, and finish it with such care.

Mac and Tom,
Perhaps you should consider Ian Laspina's girdle/lendinier method for some of the suspension of brayette and legs?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=173292

Ernst wrote:Mac and Tom,
Perhaps you should consider Ian Laspina's girdle/lendinier method for some of the suspension of brayette and legs?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=173292

I was looking at that on facebook earlier.

I can vouch for this method. I use the same one (with much velcro) for my own leg harness.

Yesterday was the day I had been dreading for about six years. That's how long it has been since the last time my August Patron has tried the armor on. Let me hasten to say that this lapse is entirely my fault.

He has arranged a vacation to include a stop in the Philly area an each end of the trip for fitting, and we spent all of yesterday trying things on. It was a mixed bag. Some things fit OK and some did not.

On the plus side...
---the new shoulders and upper cannons are going to work.
---the mail standard fits nicely
---the mail skirt looks and fits OK
---the cuisses fit OK
---the greaves and sabatons fit OK

There are some things that will need a bit of work...
---the falling plate of the bevor needs to be remounted to lower the height at the ears.
---the gauntlet cuffs need to be spread a bit to clear the vambraces
---the elbow cops should probably be mounted a little "deeper" on their leathers.
---the mail breyette needs to be shortened a bit in the "fall"

There are other things that need a lot of work...
--- the elbows of the mail sleeves are too low and a bit too tight.
--- the cuirasse needs to be enlarged

This last item is the one I expected and dreaded. It's really too much to hope that a middle aged man will not gain some weight in six years. In this case that amounts to about three inches at the waist. My first line of attack will be to weld material to the edges of all the plates and lames as needed to make up the shortfall. This will throw off the proportions of the tassets, so at a minimum, I will need to replace the side tassets. If that looks wrong, the front tassets will need replacement as well. The worst case scenario is that I will need to replace the cuirasse more or less entirely. I am hoping to avoid that.

I have about a week and a half to make some changes. I hope that when my Patron returns, tanned and refreshed from sunnier climes, that I will be have things fitting properly.

I am trying to see the bright side of all this. We had been hoping to have everything ready to deliver by late spring. If I had been able to keep to that schedule, it would have been a disaster. This fitting has been a bitter spanking, but it's better to have to bite the bullet now than to have just plowed ahead and finished the armor only to find that it did not fit. So, while there is a lot to do and redo, I do have a sense of relieve and resolve. It's a bit like that feeling you get when you just barely avoid a wreck on the highway.

Mac

Mac, this comment is probably wide of the mark, but I can't seem to find a photo in the thread that shows how long the lower cannons are, and am not sure exactly what you mean when you say that the gauntlet cuffs need to be spread a bit to clear the vambraces. You probably already know this, but for those who don't, the tight wristed 'gothic' gauntlets required a drastically shorter cannon that fell far short of the wrist (actual wrist stops with the flutes), as is shown in this portrait of Maximilian I. The artist has taken the liberty of adding an extension to the cannon to make it reach the wrist, which annoys the stuffing out of me as I would have liked to know what the sleeve worn under the armour looked like down there.

Thanks for that image, James. That's a lot like what I have, but I might be able to trim them just a bit shorter, and that would be all to the good. In any case, I'll have to keep the hems as small as I can.

Mac

Well Mac, now you know how William West felt after I went back after 3 years!

The turned edges on the 'Sigmund' cannons are pretty much just folded over maybe 1/8" at most.

Mac wrote: --- the cuirasse needs to be enlarged

This last item is the one I expected and dreaded. It's really too much to hope that a middle aged man will not gain some weight in six years. In this case that amounts to about three inches at the waist. My first line of attack will be to weld material to the edges of all the plates and lames as needed to make up the shortfall. This will throw off the proportions of the tassets, so at a minimum, I will need to replace the side tassets. If that looks wrong, the front tassets will need replacement as well. The worst case scenario is that I will need to replace the cuirasse more or less entirely. I am hoping to avoid that.

Mac

Yeah it sucks. The Rene back & breast you helped me build is in the basement waiting for me to loos a few inches to fit it. It may wait a long damn time.

I think I'm going to sell it and start over. I know it sucks but if you do hit your worst case scenario there are hundreds of people watching this thread who would pay for liposuction in the hope of fitting the piece which doesn't fit. It may at least help cut your losses.

I hope it fits!

Sean

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:The turned edges on the 'Sigmund' cannons are pretty much just folded over maybe 1/8" at most.

In this image from Goll you can see both how short the lower cannons are and the turned edge.

That's too bad about the fit Mac, I hope the welding solution works out for you and your patron. If it makes you feel any better the I can still fit in to the graniture you made me 20+ years ago. (It takes a little more creativity to do so, but it can be done without fear of squeezing or slicing off a bit here or there.)

Take care,

De-wayne

I spent yesterday making notes and chilling. I don't want to rush into anything without having a pretty good idea what I am doing.

Today I started the process of welding material onto the edges of the cuirasse to make up the shortfall. My plan is to put a third of the needed material on the breastplate and fauld, and the remaining two thirds on the back and cullet.

Taking a straight line from the edge of the upper breast shows that I can fill in about 3/8" or so at the waist, fading to nothing at the top of the plackart.



That piece will look like this.



Because it's next to impossible to weld on a piece that tapers to nothing, I have added the shaded area here on the template. It is only there to make the welding possible, and it will get removed later.



Down at the bottom, the add-on will wrap around the bottom of the waist flange. Exactly what shape that will be can't be determined from the outside.



Here on the inside, I have sketched the shape of the material that I must add to the template.



This is the resulting "hockey stick". The shaded areas are just there for the weld, and will get removed later.



Two hockey sticks in .072"



Bent to shape and clamped in place.



and tack welded.



This is the first welding I have done in a couple of years. It turns out to be tough on my biceps tendonitis. It also turns out that I really need new bifocals. Here is a pic of what a good weld should look like. I am not showing the places that did not turn out so well.....



After a bit of grinding and hot hammering, this it what they look like. I'll get some pics of the weld cleaning process tomorrow or the next day. There are a number of lames that will need metal welded to them, and they will be easier to photograph.



I should have gotten a pic to show this earlier, but the red line is where the armor was closing to several years ago, and the green line is from the other day's fitting. You can see that we need more materiel at the bottom than the top. In any case, this is what it looks like with everything screwed back together.





Mac

Thank you for this lesson, invaluable just like all the other.This is a point where many armourer would have stopped updating their "dirty laundry" . I appreciate that you explain us how to overcome all the problems you are facing.

Yesterday morning my plan was to weld onto the plackart, but not the upper breast. Last night I was thinking that it would look better if I added to the upper breast as well. This morning that still seemed like a good plan. The down side is that the add-on will need to have a hem, and it will all have to look original.



Here's one of the new pieces, with its partially turned hem.



Welding all the way to the edge of the hem will be too difficult with the hem closed, so it will have to be opened back up a bit. I'm sorry about the focus here. The tool is a nail with the point dressed up a bit. This operation will be done with the hem warmed up to orange.



That worked fine.



The tack welding went smoothly....



....and the weld is adequate to the task.



After lunch, I will weld the other side and get them cleaned up and the hems finished.

Mac

Is it safe to guess that you're tacking with a MIG, then torch welding with a filler rod?

Signo wrote:Thank you for this lesson, invaluable just like all the other.This is a point where many armourer would have stopped updating their "dirty laundry" . I appreciate that you explain us how to overcome all the problems you are facing.

It is a bit difficult to get up the ambition to take the photos under these circumstances. Part of me wants to just do battle with it in private and not document the struggle, but that would be wrong. The whole point of this thread is for people to learn what they can from my mistakes as well as my successes.

Mac

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Is it safe to guess that you're tacking with a MIG, then torch welding with a filler rod?

No. I'm tacking with gas. I'm a bit out of practice, and my tacks look a bit cold and protuberant. They're only tacks, though, and so long as they hold until I run the real weld, it's all good.

The "rod" I'm using is narrow strips of 1050. I sometimes wish I had some convenient way to shear better filler from scrap. Perhaps I should get a Beverly shear.

Mac

Someone just recently mentioned saving the curly pigtail kerf from cuts they made with their nibbler, and uncurling them to use as weld filler.

That would be an easy way to get a consistent width. Electric or air powered nibblers are less expensive than a Bev, too. You might even be able to use it for something else!

Here's a pic of what passes for welding rod in my shop. This is just prior to running a bead down the inside of the joint.



The upper breast add-ons are in place and the hems are closed back up.



I was originally going to add more to the back than to the front to make up the shortfall, but now I am thinking that a more even distribution of material will be better. As I weld onto the breast and plackart, the new proportions of the cuirasse are beginning to look better.



Mac

Mac wrote:

Signo wrote:Thank you for this lesson, invaluable just like all the other.This is a point where many armourer would have stopped updating their "dirty laundry" . I appreciate that you explain us how to overcome all the problems you are facing.

It is a bit difficult to get up the ambition to take the photos under these circumstances. Part of me wants to just do battle with it in private and not document the struggle, but that would be wrong. The whole point of this thread is for people to learn what they can from my mistakes as well as my successes.

Mac

And kudos for that.

Honestly Mac, showing us your mistakes and fixes are far more valuable than you can imagine. It's staggering and disheartening how many pieces I could have saved over the years If I knew how and what to fix. Seeing you not get it perfect every time also makes me want to take the hammer back up after I've given up on a piece. Thank you.

Mac wrote: --- the cuirasse needs to be enlarged

This last item is the one I expected and dreaded. It's really too much to hope that a middle aged man will not gain some weight in six years. In this case that amounts to about three inches at the waist.

Mac

Well, it looks like your test fit stand in, Will, is going to have to step-up and pack on a few pounds.

I am having a bastard of a time with my welds cracking as the pieces cool from welding temperature. This just doesn't happen in my construction welds, and I had no trouble adding to the breast and plackard, but sticking rectangular bits onto lames is a different beast. It's a question of geometry, I think. Details later....

Mac

I presume you are, but: Are you making sure to cool them slowly and normalize the weld area?

Would backing the lames with a copper mass help distribute the weld heat and help with the rapid cooling problem?

Mac: Also a slight bevel on each edge sometimes also helps in getting more weld material between the two surfaces. The copper backup plate is also a very good idea as well.

Shoving the welded end into vermiculite will slow down the cooling process sufficiently to not necessitate a copper plate.

The copper mass ( not a thin plate) is used during the welding process to distribute the heat and help prevent warping of thin sheet metal plates . It adds mass to the welded material w/o the chance of being welded along with the steel to help make the weld more uniform. Vermiculite won't quite do that. :^o

Try using mild steel filler rather than 1050. If you are concerned that the resulting pieces wont heat treat the way you want it should be easy to make a test sample to see if those concerns are founded.