Rivets on a slat back helm question.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:04 am

Hi All,
I am going to be putting together the last bits of one of Halberds crusader helm kits this weekend.
Quick question.

Is one rivet af the top of the slat back really all it needs to be held together? i would hate to be fighting in it and get it popped off.
Is it SCA list legal?
I live in the East.

accdntprone · Post by **accdntprone** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:16 am

Depends. My slat backs use two inch slats, with two rivets at the top. But if you are using one inch slats one rivet pretty much gets it done.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:18 am

The proper answer is: it depends.

Within the letter of the law it needs to be riveted once every 2.5" so if the slat isn't more then 2.5" wide then it legally doesn't.

2. All joints or seams shall be constructed in one or a combination of the following ways, with all welds sound and rivets secure:
d. Helms will be riveted with iron or steel rivets no more than 2.5 inches (63.5 mm) apart, or with equivalent riveting techniques. Screw- and pop-type rivets, along with other lightweight rivets, are not to be used.

If it has a lower bar that the slats bridge to and the lower bar is secure then 1 rivet top and bot might be secure enough. If 1 rivet will keep the slats from spreading to allow passage of a 1" dowel it will be legal.

If there is a lower bar that isn't secure or if there are short bridge plates then the slats might 'rack'... so they will pass a 1" dowel check but not necessarily provide a rigid defense to your head it might be legal but not as safe as you might wish.

Without pictures, it is very difficult to assess a design.

All that said, I value my skull. 10 more rivets might cost $1.00. It seems like cheap insurance to drill twice as many holes and double the number of rivets. How much do you value your skull?

Sean

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:36 pm

Well, how often do people get solidly wrapped to the back of the head, where none of the blow lands on the skull or back?
It's never happened to me.
So my perspective is a bit different... I agree 100% with Sean that it's insurance... but insurance is also supposed to be something that only kicks in when a catastrophe happens.
Someone taking a baseball swing at the back of your head with a great sword is certainly a catastrophe.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:05 pm

schreiber wrote:Well, how often do people get solidly wrapped to the back of the head, where none of the blow lands on the skull or back?
It's never happened to me.
So my perspective is a bit different... I agree 100% with Sean that it's insurance... but insurance is also supposed to be something that only kicks in when a catastrophe happens.
Someone taking a baseball swing at the back of your head with a great sword is certainly a catastrophe.

Could be my crappy fighting technique but if I count helmet back as 180 degrees from browband down to neck I'd say it happens to me more then several times per year. I've actually taken a dent in 14ga stainless from one. Of course I fight a lot of buckler so if you get to the right range I guess I'm pretty open. YMMV.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:09 pm

It depends a lot on how people fight in your region.
Some tend to stand about 3 feet apart and trade blows others will climb up in your space and swing from 4" or less.
Range weapons like spears, polearms, and greatsword become less effective at 4".

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:33 am

I am not sure, if you look in my old rivet pack, I tried to have plenty of leftovers.
The single rivet looked adequate to me as an integral support member in conjunction with the black slat band, which is riveted to the face plate.

I hammer on my back slat assembly with a 3 pound weighted rawhide mallet to blend the final shape.
I have never had a rivet pop out.

Bad pining will cause a rivet failure.
It is up to you to make your helm safe.

I can offer no guarantees as to how you build your helm.
Present it to your local marshal for inspection.

If in doubt... take it to your local welding shop and bring a case of beer.

Hal

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:43 am

Ha! Thanks Hal!
I wasn't implying that your ensign was unsafe. I apologize if it came across that way.
I just didn't want to put it together and either A: have a marshal bounce it. or B: have it fail because of my assembly skills.

I might just do the beer+ welding shop idea too.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:24 am

I just didn't want to put it together and either A: have a marshal bounce it. or B: have it fail because of my assembly skills.

MJB, If you can hammer a nail in straight, you can pein a rivet. You've got the hammer control, don't fret.

When putting a rivet in a hole, check how much rivet is sticking out the other side. If it's definitely taller than the width of the rivet shank, you have a lot more than you need and should boltcutter or angle-grind that extra off it before upsetting and peining down with your ballpein. All it has to be is tight down to the surface of the metal; thus it is clinching the metal tight together. This is the shop head of the rivet, contrasted with the one head it already has from the rivet factory, because you've made in in your little shop.

If it's definitely shorter, either use a longer rivet, substitute a suitably trimmed down large nail, or you can try salvaging things by chamfering the hole a good bit to make a flush rivet, peining the rivet down into a shallow, conical hole in effect, just about as deep as 14ga is thick. (12ga even better) Make that chamfer using a larger drill bit than the rivet-hole diameter. The flush rivet's metal spreads out into the chamfer, making a shop-head to the rivet that doesn't lump up very much if at all.

Slat backs are pretty well anchored having their top ends with a rivet and another rivet passing through the horizontal bar below that is riveted at each end to the cheeks of the helmet. That's two rivets, well spaced, holding each slat.

There is no law, nor an Armour Standard, against putting in a larger number of smaller rivets. Balance that right, and you end up with more cross section of rivet metal holding the joint closed, which is stronger. Compare the cross-sectional area of a 3/16" rivet shank with that of two 1/8" -- there's a bit more metal at work in there. Heck, three little 1/8" rivets in a triangle, even, or the 3/16 you already have drilled teamed with two 1/8 above or below it. Not bad, is it?

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:28 am

Consarned AutoSuggest:

I wasn't implying that your ensign was unsafe.

It's a Navy truism that ensigns may not be all that safe, particularly those with a Mo-board and the conn of the ship... They might have about as much Navy time and time-in-grade as a Seaman Apprentice. And about the same level of practical experience at things...

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:50 am

I prefer rivets sit flush on the inside of a helm.
This can be accomplished by counter sinking the rivet hole from the inside just a little.
Trimming the rivet just a little short and hitting it with a file or abrasive to remove excess material.
A deburring tool run around the rivet hole almost removes enough to do this.
I use a counter sink bit with a standard 1/4" hex shaft in a screwdriver handle.

Rivets on a slat back helm question.

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