The Armour Archive

Regular welding goggles are too dark, and lamp working goggles aren't dark enough. What do you guys wear?

I usually wear ballistic sunglasses. Actually saved my eye once. A hammer head broke off after I slammed it down like an idiot. Had a pick on one side. The point stopped just a few hairs from my eyeball.

Hit a good welding shop.
Shade 5 is used for OXY/fuel welding and should be about right.
Shade 3 or 4 are a little lighter and often used for grinding things besides TItanium.

....I don't understand the question.
I use regular Harbor Freight 99 cent eye protection, with no shade.
If you hit steel which has gotten hot enough to release the nasty rays, that steel is going to explode, which is kind of contrary to most purposes I have in mind.

Green Lens IR safety glasses, like the ones used for glassblowing and checking a pottery kiln...designed specifically for working with things that put off a lot of heat.

The lampworking glasses (Didymium) filter yellow flare, but not much UV and no IR. IR shades block UV and IR, but not yellow glare. The Green IR does all three. I have a shade 3, and squint. Shade 5 offers a little more protection from IR and UV, but not enough to justify the loss of vision (to me, anyway). If I could find a shade 4, that'd be a Goldilocks, but no one seems to make them. Soo, 3.

http://www.sundanceglass.com/didymiumsr.htm

Forges and hot iron do not put out UV---unlike arc welding. They do put out IR and over time IR WILL damage your eyes---see glass blowers cataracts. (schreiber, you may want to have a nice long talk with an ophthalmologist before posting misleading safety information. I had a good friend who is one and he spent quite a bit of time pounding some sense into me over eye issues. I've been forging over 33 years now and my eyes are ok save for the UV damage from living in the desert at an altitude...)

Most safety glasses are worried about UV as that's a very fast damaging situation; however you can buy oxy-acetylene welding lenses in a variety of shade levels that will deal with the issue.

I use a face shield so that I can look comfortably at the flame while I am heating, and then flip it up before I start hammering. Although I have gotten pretty good at it, flipping up a face shield does take some little time that would be better spent striking while the iron is hot.

I use a FiberMetal "Green Dark-s 4178" It's a bit darker than I would really like. They used to make a slightly lighter "DK Green General Purpose No 4118", but it has been replaced with a darker shield with the same numbers. My welding supply guy told me that FiberMetal's lawyers made them change it because too many bone-heads were using it for welding. The lighter green was better, really, because you could see well enough to hammer with the shield down. I suppose that's why my good old shield got so warped out of shape.... I'm pretty nearsighted, and like to get my face close to the work.

I used sometimes to leave the shield half way up and look through the green for heating and then tip my head back to hammer. This does not work since I started wearing bifocals.

Mac

(edited to correct spelling)

I wear (eye ware) Uvex S212s. Shade 3 flip up lenses over clear safely glasses. They are nice and close to your face and you still have eye pro when you don't need shade. Have a half flip detent so you can use them like Mac described and I usually do. Duck head down for heat work and then tip up for hammering. Works fairly well. A friend of mine had prescription lenses put in a set. I'd imagine you could do bifocals. They also have a shade 5 version if needed.

http://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S212-Horizon ... ade+3+flip

Depending on what type of shield/mask/goggles your useing it may be possible to purchase material and cut your own lenses.
Several people use stuff from lasersafety.com for filters in the lab as well as lenses for personal protection.
grainger, McMaster, Lincoln, miller, fastenal, or enco should have the shade 4 shields or lenses.
I know the higher end auto dark welding masks often have a 3,4, or 5 for grinding before jumping up to 9-13 for resistant welding and plasma.

You know it's going to be fun when you start manipulating the 4th state of matter.

All,

Thanks for the safety reminder. Important safety issues come up often on this forum and I really pleased for the personal reminder and knowing that the quiet lurkers may heed the advice. I spent years looking in a forge and no one ever cautioned me about the potential long term affects, not even at organized blacksmithing conferences.

-A.

I knew a fellow who had been a professional smith for over 60 years when I met him. There was a period when his output dropped way down due to cataracts and then surged up again after cataract surgery. There was also a fellow over at swordforum using thermite to do all sorts of interesting steel alloying until the post that he was going blind and was no longer going to continue his backyard steel milling.

Eye issues scare me greatly and not only from my friend going into great detail what I was facing longterm. My polycarbonite safety glasses have saved my eyes dozens of times from impact. I've used a disk drive super magnet to lift a steel sliver riding over my eyeball and I'm nearly legally blind without glasses and am diabetic!


Be SAFE out there folks!

Great info folks! I've just started doing hot work with an oxy/propane torch and never considered this issue. Back to the welding shop for proper tinted glasses.

From the moment I go into my workshop until I leave, I always have some sort of eye protection on. Always. You never know when stupid may happen... I've got different glasses for different work, welding, torch, jewelry, sewing, woodwork, etc...

Once you get used into the habit of safety, it becomes second nature.

I use the 9300 model here: http://www.piehtoolco.com/contents/en-us/d702.html when working at or near welding heat.
For regular work I use regular clear safety glasses, they have saved my eyes on a number of occasions from flying scale and grit from the grinder.

Hold on, I have to be that guy now. At no point did I post misleading information. I stated that I don't understand the problem, and after all these responses, I still don't understand the problem, and I'm convinced many of the rest of you don't, either.

This is brand new info to more than one of us.
And I've welded way too much galvanized steel in my day, without turning into a brain eating zombie, to place all my faith in safety tips that show up in an internet discussion.

I looked up glassblower's cataracts and it looks like the people who get it are........... glassblowers. And foundry workers. On an armor forum, I assumed that we were talking about raising temperatures of steel, which is significantly lower temperature than foundry work, and which is (I hope) also not glass.

On a casual search outside this thread I'm getting that
a) There are different materials that shade different rays
b) The heat source is actually a greater danger than the steel
c) The distance the steel is from your eyes makes a difference in level of IR exposure

And that's just in 2 minutes. There are clearly variables here.

Also, I don't remember any introductory blacksmithing or armoring book I've read bringing this up. If there is a danger, I consider this fact to be irresponsible not only of the publishers, but also the communities who are not trying to get it corrected.

Can someone point to a definitive source for info on IR WRT the type of hotwork we're actually doing? Is there something from an occupational safety organization?
I do realize everyone is going to think I'm being a dick here, and maybe I am, but lots of people heat metal for a living all day every day for decades, and if there are studies on the effects on eyes of heating steel to sub-melting temperatures, it should be pretty easy to find them... but it's not. The references I find are all from different activities.

If this is a danger, then there is more likely than not a correct course of action for it - and so far everyone has thrown out personal preferences here. That's a problem. We're not talking about a favorite style of tongs - we're talking about our eyes. If there's a danger it needs to be clearly delineated by science, and a solution needs to be equally clearly spelled out.

Took me less than 30 seconds to find: the following using: ir radiation eye damage as my google search. It's the first article btw:

Radiation effects on the eye
Part 1 - Infrared radiation effects on ocular tissue
"Cataracts associated with
occupational infrared exposure have
been known about since 1739 and,
historically, it is on this problem that the
greatest attention has been focused. The
occupations of glass blowing, metal
working, chain making and tin plating
and forging are those in which infrared
levels can be significant"

And as far as IR damage it's the temperature and time and amount that cause problems NOT whether it's metalworking, glass blowing, etc.

Also on the first page of results: Infrared Radiation...Invisible Workplace Hazard - US Safety

And BTW "If you hit steel which has gotten hot enough to release the nasty rays, that steel is going to explode" is misleading information as IR radiation is present way below the "steel is going to explode". Now if you had said hot steel doesn't emit dangerous UV at temps we work it at" then that would not have been misleading. UV is far far more nasty due to those shorter wavelengths transmitting more energy (planck's constant x frequency)

I had my talking to by my friend the Ophthalmologist and Ophthalmological surgeon back in the early 1980's. (BTW he was kingdom chiurgeon of Calontir at one time IIRC: Craig Goodleech Duggin ) He was aware of studies and reports on the issue and warned me. I also met smiths who had been working for over 60 years at the craft around then and had had the cataracts it produced. Now folks doing little work over a long span of time probably don't have an issue; but even when I was learning to smith 30+ years ago I was told not to stare into the fire; but only glance at it as needed.

I'm 57 and am beginning to have cataract issues---which my Dr says is about normal for this area---high altitude, intense sunlight. The only issue is that I haven't lived here my entire life, only a decade! The rest of the damage is mainly due to watching hot metal. for the last 30+ years.

I mount my torch on a stand, move the piece up to the flame to heat, then back to an anvil/stake/whatever to shape it. It saves me the cooling time of putting down the torch. I'm thinking a shade 5 screen to protect my eyes from the flame would help a lot, without reducing vision during the shaping. The trouble is finding a large shade 5 screen. I can find face shields and other types of lenses. Gotta keep looking.

Thanks for all the links and suggestions!

A weird side note- I blow glass occasionally too. Most of the professional glass blowers I've worked with wear no eye protection at all. Doesn't sound wise.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:I mount my torch on a stand, move the piece up to the flame to heat, then back to an anvil/stake/whatever to shape it. It saves me the cooling time of putting down the torch. I'm thinking a shade 5 screen to protect my eyes from the flame would help a lot, without reducing vision during the shaping. The trouble is finding a large shade 5 screen. I can find face shields and other types of lenses. Gotta keep looking.

Thanks for all the links and suggestions!

A weird side note- I blow glass occasionally too. Most of the professional glass blowers I've worked with wear no eye protection at all. Doesn't sound wise.

A stationary torch is handy. Do you have a foot valve or someother gas saver with that?

I made a stand for my gas mizer and it has separate arm that I can have it sit on and NOT turn off the gas. I have thought about making some sort of treadle to activate the gas.

I guess none of the glass artist know the cautionary tale of Dale Chihuly? He wears an eyepatch for a reason
http://www.chihuly.com/chronology.aspx

Dale got into a car accident in the late 70s that caused the loss of his eye. Just saying...

Thomas Powers wrote:Took me less than 30 seconds to find: the following using: ir radiation eye damage as my google search. It's the first article btw:

My mistake was apparently adding search terms such as "forging", "blacksmithing", or likewise. Those dots are very much not connected in literature.
Anyway, this is the link TP is referencing:
http://www.optometry.co.uk/uploads/arti ... 990521.pdf

And as far as IR damage it's the temperature and time and amount that cause problems NOT whether it's metalworking, glass blowing, etc.

Yes, but the thing that's not coming through clearly here is that it is most likely the heat source, not the work, which is the primary problem.

The article wrote:The most recent and very extensive
onsite work in this area has come from
a Swedish study by Lydahl (1984)20.
....
The left eye of
glass workers was found to be more
affected by cataract than the right,
which was considered to be because of
the higher infrared doses received by
the left eye, because of the position of
working.

I'm having trouble not pegging this to the heat source. If the work was the primary problem then both eyes would be affected equally.

However, this is also where we start to find some numbers:

The article wrote:Barthelmess and Borneff (1959)18
measured the total daily radiation
received by glass blowers working near
the melting furnaces and found the total
radiant exposure to be between 2000
and 3000 Jcm-2, though only
approximately 10% of that total was
infrared below 1400nm. For comparison,
the infrared corneal dose rate from
daylight is about 10-3Wcm-2, so that 12
hours of continuous exposure will
typically deliver a radiant exposure of
about 50 Jcm-2.

Quick math: 3000 Jcm^2 at 10% IR is 300 Jcm^2, so a full day's work in front of an industrial glass blowing furnace is the equivalent of six 12-hour days in full sun.

Now, I imagine that an industrial glass blowing furnace is HUGE compared to what we're playing with on a daily basis. I admit there is probably some damage being done by torches and forges, but the question of "how much" still very much remains.

TP wrote:Also on the first page of results: Infrared Radiation...Invisible Workplace Hazard - US Safety

Ok, now we're getting further. It specifically mentions OSHA standard 29.1910.133:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadis ... &p_id=9778
However, nothing is mentioned regarding forging in this standard. The closest it comes is gas brazing.
I'm interested in hearing Mac's position there - it sounds like he's intentionally using the shade only for the torch work in the operation. This could be because he is concerned that he won't be able to see the color properly, it could be that he's unconcerned with the level of IR emitted by the steel absent the heat source, or it could be a combination of the two.

TP wrote:And BTW "If you hit steel which has gotten hot enough to release the nasty rays, that steel is going to explode" is misleading information as IR radiation is present way below the "steel is going to explode". Now if you had said hot steel doesn't emit dangerous UV at temps we work it at" then that would not have been misleading. UV is far far more nasty due to those shorter wavelengths transmitting more energy (planck's constant x frequency)

Ok, I see your point.

Heat source design plays a big part. A propane forge is almost totally enclosed with only the door letting out the IR, A charcoal forge the entire top of the hot spot is emitting and since you are more likely to burn up a piece in a solid fuel forge you will spend more time watching it.

A hot workpiece can be a powerful IR emitter. When I forge pots I notice that the curved workpiece makes a dandy parabolic IR emitter that always seems to be focused on the tong hand...

Since you do seem to be interested in the details; I have a friend who works as a metallurgist at one of the last big open die forging companies in the US. I'll ask him if he can come up with the OSHA specs for IR eye protection for forging/hot work.

And thank you for taking my comments in a less heated manner than they were generated---low blood sugar

Thomas Powers wrote:Heat source design plays a big part. A propane forge is almost totally enclosed with only the door letting out the IR, A charcoal forge the entire top of the hot spot is emitting and since you are more likely to burn up a piece in a solid fuel forge you will spend more time watching it.

A hot workpiece can be a powerful IR emitter. When I forge pots I notice that the curved workpiece makes a dandy parabolic IR emitter that always seems to be focused on the tong hand...

Since you do seem to be interested in the details; I have a friend who works as a metallurgist at one of the last big open die forging companies in the US. I'll ask him if he can come up with the OSHA specs for IR eye protection for forging/hot work.

And thank you for taking my comments in a less heated manner than they were generated---low blood sugar

That would be awesome. Sorry I got a little hot there too - I'm a computer programmer by profession, and my rule of thumb is "If I didn't personally witness it, it didn't happen". It serves me well at work, but I can see now how that's not as probably not as productive an axiom as "better safe than sorry" when talking industry.

schreiber wrote:

I'm interested in hearing Mac's position there - it sounds like he's intentionally using the shade only for the torch work in the operation. This could be because he is concerned that he won't be able to see the color properly, it could be that he's unconcerned with the level of IR emitted by the steel absent the heat source, or it could be a combination of the two.

I may be wrong, but I think the torch flame is a more significant eye hazard than the glow from the work. I am only taking the work up to a bright orange, and that does not cause me any discomfort. My rule of thumb is; if it makes my want to squint, I use a shade. On the other hand, the unshaded torch flame makes me "see spots". This not only "feels like trouble", but it keeps me from seeing what I am doing.

For what it's worth, my sight is still OK for a guy my age; no sign of cataracts yet. (yes, I know, this is only anecdotal "evidence" )

Thus, for good of ill, for right or wrong, that is the practice I have settled to. I do look forward to seeing what Thomas P. finds out for OSHA standards. I am not so set in my ways that I won't change if it looks like I should.

Mac

Roland Ansbacher wrote:Dale got into a car accident in the late 70s that caused the loss of his eye. Just saying...

Oh, I thought I had read it was glass related and a shame for it. When I went on the website I linked I was really surprised how long ago it had happened. He has created much of his 3D work without stereoscopic vision. I know he uses helpers to compensate but it is a very impressive accomplishment.


The thought of a red hot piece of glass hitting my eye really makes me swirm. More so than steel, for some reason.