The Armour Archive

I've been playing with raising a set of late period floating elbows from Wades collection. Working with http://www.allenantiques.com/A-177.html. Not complete yet but far enough to post some progress. The pattern isn't quite right for the shape of Wades but since I spent a bunch of time raising the points (in 1050) I decided to finish them out. Probably best to call these a prototype.

Started with this pattern. The max width should really be further to inside (towards the low #s. A little more length on that end would help the length of the inner curved end as well.



Made a pointed stake to raise the elbow point on at Eldrids suggestion. He does something similar with his earlier (15th Cent?) elbow pattern. Made out of Oxy tank steel.









You clamp the work piece down to it with vise grips. It works. Raising this form took a long time. That said I doubt that this was the way it was done in period. Probably a lot more heat and dishing to curl it in before the raising phase.

Start of the raising. Pushed down the area around the point line to lock the work into place. Once it was pinched in on both sides it behaved pretty well.

Continued raising. Working my way outward.



More



All the way to the edges. It was a challenge dealing with wrinkles wanting to form in the 18 ga 1050. The next set will start as 16 ga and get a deeper dish to start the edges downward before raising. Nice thing about doing two at a time is you can work on the second one while the first in cooling!



Refining the shape.



Working the point in to meet the stake.



Top view



There were long periods of staring in between many of these stages...

A couple more with the elbow point refined.





Here is a shot of the central line that carries from the elbow point into the elbow "pit" pushed out a bit. Its an interesting transition. You go from a pushed out crease into the inverted V of the inner wing. You have to blend the two together and define the curve.

It can be seen herehttp://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-177-wing.jpg

Here is the start of mine.

Here is a shot of the curve of the wing started and depth involved.



Here are the two placed next to Wades. As you can see there isn't enough meat at the right place for the wing to match. I may draw out that edge some to make up for it. There will be a wire filled roll for strength so I think I have a little to play with. Either way some careful recutting of the edge to make it more like the curve of the original is in order.





Gave them a quick scuff pass with a dull 120 belt to see how much planishing I am in for. Not too bad. Some selective bumping out will take care of most of it. Trick is getting the hammer in there. But the interior is surprisingly accesible to a long nosed hammer.



Thats where we are today. Final planish to go. Final trim for shape. Then wiring the edge and roping. Then the rivets with anti-clack leathers on the back of the edge.

Moving along nicely. They look much nicer than they did the last time I saw them. You are right, you don't have metal in quite the right places for the wing. Move what little you can, trim a little in other places and stare at the other similar elbows I have and similar ones in museums/books and see if you can justify a shape you can achieve. Either way, they should work and look cool with the spaulders. I expect that everyone who sees them will "know" that they are just a couple of pieces of steel welded together with a roll on the edge. Not what they are, but that is what they will see. A few people will get that there really are some subtle details there.

Wade

wcallen wrote:Moving along nicely. They look much nicer than they did the last time I saw them. You are right, you don't have metal in quite the right places for the wing. Move what little you can, trim a little in other places and stare at the other similar elbows I have and similar ones in museums/books and see if you can justify a shape you can achieve. Either way, they should work and look cool with the spaulders. I expect that everyone who sees them will "know" that they are just a couple of pieces of steel welded together with a roll on the edge. Not what they are, but that is what they will see. A few people will get that there really are some subtle details there.

Wade

Good idea Wade! I should go back and see if I can reverse engineer the shape to fit a different elbow. You have several that are similar but different in subtle ways. I'll do some digging before the final shaping. I will say that they have gotten thicker through the raising process. Probably up to 16 ga where the most movement happened.

Yeah, I know that most will assume I did the dart and weld but I am not doing it for them. I'm doing it to learn and to say I can. One of things I think I learned is that they did not do elbows with raising as the sole technique for shape. Too much time in it. I certainly wouldn't do this for production work! That is the nice thing about making stuff for yourself. Except that my client is an unreasonable taskmaster and stickler for the littlest details...

Once I get these behind me I'll be tackling the cuirass. It will be raised too.
We are doing the torso cast this evening.

Torso cast tonight.

So, how are you going to make sure you can have a torso cast that mimics the "squeeze it in a little at the sides" detail that is necessary to get the "right" fit as opposed to making it fit your body?

Wade

wcallen wrote:Torso cast tonight.

So, how are you going to make sure you can have a torso cast that mimics the "squeeze it in a little at the sides" detail that is necessary to get the "right" fit as opposed to making it fit your body?

Wade

Funny you should ask that... I was thinking of using some saran wrap to pull in the squishy bits around the waist. Might distort the front of the belly a bit but that can be dealt with easier in shaping/fitting than the sides. Fortunately I am roughly close to a 16th century shape.

Other than that- I am open to suggestions. The only cast work I have done is what we did over at Toms. How much do you suggest we try to snug up?

Were going to do arms as well. That part should go as it did with Iains. I did get white casting wraps, though. At least we will be able to see what we are cutting into with the dremel!

Johann,

For that torso cast.... Have you got a thin belt that you can sacrifice to the process? Failing that, have you got a cheap buckle and some leather you care little about?

If you put the belt on and shove it around till it sits at a good 16th C waist position, the resulting cast will have three distinct benefits... --The first is that the waist location is already marked in the positive cast. You won't have to guess where it is.
--The second is that having pulled the belt in as much as you think you can stand, the resulting cast already has the correct waist measurement, so there'll be no guessing there either.
--The third is that the belt will force you to breath with your chest rather than your belly during the casting process. This will go a long way toward telling you how much you need to fudge the chest size for breathing.

Mac

I would snug more for someone with more weight and less for someone with less. Assuming the extra weight is mostly fat.

I think Mac said he carved a couple of inches out o Gilman's body cast.
I tend to cheat about 1/2" in on Geoffrey's side to side measurement on each side. Then I cheat the top about the same in the opposite direction, so overall I get about 2" more taper than he has. That seems to work pretty well. I am cheating from the bare skin measurement on the waist and then adding clothing in and it all works out fine.

Wade

Mac wrote:Johann,

For that torso cast.... Have you got a thin belt that you can sacrifice to the process? Failing that, have you got a cheap buckle and some leather you care little about?

If you put the belt on and shove it around till it sits at a good 16th C waist position, the resulting cast will have three distinct benefits... --The first is that the waist location is already marked in the positive cast. You won't have to guess where it is.
--The second is that having pulled the belt in as much as you think you can stand, the resulting cast already has the correct waist measurement, so there'll be no guessing there either.
--The third is that the belt will force you to breath with your chest rather than your belly during the casting process. This will go a long way toward telling you how much you need to fudge the chest size for breathing.

Mac

I'm a hoarder of buckles and other misc stuff so I should be able to knock together a protobelt for the job. Great suggestion, thanks!

Dumb question- belt on my waist on the inside of the casting (like your rubberbanding of toes) or cinched over the casting material before it completely hardens?

Johann ColdIron wrote:

Mac wrote:Johann,

For that torso cast.... Have you got a thin belt that you can sacrifice to the process? Failing that, have you got a cheap buckle and some leather you care little about?

If you put the belt on and shove it around till it sits at a good 16th C waist position, the resulting cast will have three distinct benefits... --The first is that the waist location is already marked in the positive cast. You won't have to guess where it is.
--The second is that having pulled the belt in as much as you think you can stand, the resulting cast already has the correct waist measurement, so there'll be no guessing there either.
--The third is that the belt will force you to breath with your chest rather than your belly during the casting process. This will go a long way toward telling you how much you need to fudge the chest size for breathing.

Mac

I'm a hoarder of buckles and other misc stuff so I should be able to knock together a protobelt for the job. Great suggestion, thanks!

Dumb question- belt on my waist on the inside of the casting (like your rubberbanding of toes) or cinched over the casting material before it completely hardens?

You are planning on making a cast positive from the mold of your body right?
This is Mac assumption.

Belt goes on you.
Plaster bandages (or other material) wrap around you over the belt. This will make the mold
Then you use the mold to cast a positive of yourself.

Obviously I have left out the details of execution and just outlined the major steps.

wcallen wrote:I would snug more for someone with more weight and less for someone with less. Assuming the extra weight is mostly fat.

I think Mac said he carved a couple of inches out o Gilman's body cast.
I tend to cheat about 1/2" in on Geoffrey's side to side measurement on each side. Then I cheat the top about the same in the opposite direction, so overall I get about 2" more taper than he has. That seems to work pretty well. I am cheating from the bare skin measurement on the waist and then adding clothing in and it all works out fine.

Wade

Any "extra" weight I have is most certainly fat. I am pretty well fed these days. It should be squishable to the right proportions.

Thanks for the dimensions to work with!

Tom B. wrote: You are planning on making a cast positive from the mold of your body right?
This is Mac assumption.

Belt goes on you.
Plaster bandages (or other material) wrap around you over the belt. This will make the mold
Then you use the mold to cast a positive of yourself.

Obviously I have left out the details of execution and just outlined the major steps.

Depends on how the casting goes. If it goes well it will be used as is. There are armourers sucessfully using the case itself as a representive thickness of the arming clothes.

I realize that this is not a universally approved course of action...

Perhaps we need to create a whole thread just on that subject and hash it out.

Johann ColdIron wrote:

Dumb question- belt on my waist on the inside of the casting (like your rubberbanding of toes) or cinched over the casting material before it completely hardens?

Like Tom said, the belt goes on before any mold making materials. Put it on before things get hectic. Adjust it in a calm and thoughtful way. Is it in the right place? Is it on at the correct angle?... (the waist is usually lower in front than in back, and never the opposite) Check it with a pair of mirrors. Make sure that you and your casting assistant are on the same page about the waist. Time spent getting this part right will save you time later in the project.

Mac

Mac wrote:

Johann ColdIron wrote:

Dumb question- belt on my waist on the inside of the casting (like your rubberbanding of toes) or cinched over the casting material before it completely hardens?

Like Tom said, the belt goes on before any mold making materials. Put it on before things get hectic. Adjust it in a calm and thoughtful way. Is it in the right place? Is it on at the correct angle?... (the waist is usually lower in front than in back, and never the opposite) Check it with a pair of mirrors. Make sure that you and your casting assistant are on the same page about the waist. Time spent getting this part right will save you time later in the project.

Mac

Thanks for the clarification! All this discussion should help the final product. I greatly appreciate it!

Mac wrote:

Johann ColdIron wrote:

Dumb question- belt on my waist on the inside of the casting (like your rubberbanding of toes) or cinched over the casting material before it completely hardens?

Like Tom said, the belt goes on before any mold making materials. Put it on before things get hectic. Adjust it in a calm and thoughtful way. Is it in the right place? Is it on at the correct angle?... (the waist is usually lower in front than in back, and never the opposite) Check it with a pair of mirrors. Make sure that you and your casting assistant are on the same page about the waist. Time spent getting this part right will save you time later in the project.

Mac

Mac's advice about your assistant is very important.
I had to scrap one torso mold because the assistant did not understand what I needed done.
It is very difficult for the person being wrapped up to supervise / see exactly what is being done.

Do you know what you will use to cast the positive?
Make sure to brace & secure the mold very well, this is another chance to mess things up.

Tom B. wrote:


Make sure to brace & secure the mold very well, this is another chance to mess things up.

This!

The mold must be stiff enough that it will not change shape when you pour your positive. Festooning the thing with rudely cut plywood braces will not look nice but that's OK. If your assistant can attach some braces before that thing ever leaves your body, that's all to the good.

I recommend having some likely looking braces cut out beforehand, as well as having more wood ready to be cut as needed. Put a fresh blade in the band saw, and have a backup blade ready. Be sure your assistant knows how to change the blades.

Do you have a plan for getting out of the "mold"? If the plan involves hacking you out with tin snips, it's time to have a different plan.

Mac

I would like to recommend polyurethane foam for casting. Taxidermists use a hand mixed kind that could be used. It is strong enough to keep the form and it can be strengthened with different resins if needed and it can easily be carved and sanded if needed.

You can cast a body part, then match the cast with outline tracings and modify the foam torso as needed.

reciprocating tools such as were originally use to cut plaster casts of once-broken limbs are now flooding the market in hardware stores since the patent lapsed (I believe). One of these should be safe enough to use for such a purpose, wouldn't it?

Hi all,

Busy couple days. Wanted to update. Thanks for all the info and suggestions so far. Wish I could say it was a success but it was not.

Not sure what happened. It was a different brand than we used at Toms. But was supposed to be “premium” quality (Brand Name Techform) and cost slightly more than the stuff Iain bought (Brand Name Altocast). I only bought it because the “premium” could be had in white and Eldrid had been concerned about seeing the leather cut strip through the blue Iain got when we wrapped him.

Read and followed the instructions. Working time was supposed to be 3-5 min. It set off faster than that. Most did not stick to the layer beneath it. Seemed to have less resin than the other kind. Got some of it wrapped and stuck. The rest just kind of sat there on the surface no matter how much we rubbed it together. We eventually cut it all off as the layers weren’t holding together at all.

The instructions said water temp over 80* would cause faster set time. I know we were under that and it was only 70* in the shop. All I can think is to get purposely cold water to slow things down a bit and give it another go. Unfortunately we burned through 7 of 10 rolls I had so I am faced with a dilemma of ordering more of the same or getting the other brand in a color other than white. I may have enough to do one arm as a test if I don't send it back.

I am going to check with the manufacturer just to see if there was a bad batch. All of it was made around the same time in Nov ’13. Well below the exp. Date in 2016.

Love to hear from anyone who has succesfully used this stuff to see what I did wrong. Chalking this one up to learning curve and making a new plan of action.

Still nibbling on this project, though life keeps getting in the way.

Since the pattern is not quite right on these cops I decided to integrate these elbows into my current arm harness instead of adding them to the spaulders I have half finished. The elbows on it now were bought at Pennsic long ago. They were not quite correct in shape or method of contruction. The new ones will be an upgrade either way.

Test fitting meant making the attachment system that connects the elbows to the harness. This style has a single axle pin (think clevis pin) in the center of the side of the "wing" portion of the piece holding it in place on the strap between the rerebrace and the vambrace. There is also a cross strap with buckle going from side to side to keep the elbow centered on the human elbow. There are a couple holes on the inside of the elbow that may have been part of a secondary strap system to keep it all floating well together. See Wades site for details:http://www.allenantiques.com/A-177.html for details.

I made pins out of 3/8" stock. Sounds big but that is close to what the original hole mics out to. I used a piece of 1/4" plate as a rivet set and flaired out the head with heat.



Flaired it out wide and as flat as possible. If it sticks out too much it could come in contact with the pointy bones at the outside of the Radius. Getting that part clear of the bones is one of the reasons the rising central crest is part of the design of the cop.



Clipped them and then filed my fingers off getting them trued up. A lathe would have made short work of them. I could of put them in my drill press but I like the control of hand filing.



Here they are in place on the leather I have been using for years. Not a perfectly period solution but it works. It probably should be pointed to my arming doublet.



In place with the current rig with the pins gaffer taped in place. They look a little weird laying flat but the inward curl clears the rerebraces and vambraces well enough. I am debating the attachment method. I have seen wedge pins and cotter style pins on other pieces of armour but in all the books I have I cannot find a clear picture of what was used with floating elbows. I don't have all the references I should so I am sure there are some out there. If cotter pins turn out to be acceptable I will use them since unlike wedge pins they can't fall free in combat.



You can see the turn line in sharpie in this pic. It's a little thick. The original is a pretty tight roll- little more than an 1/8", with wire in it. Gonna need to make a new tool to get that tight a roll turned inside something so cramped.

I dug through my steel pile and found a decent piece of hex rod. Spark test put it at at least medium carbon. I think it was a stone chisel as it had a heavily mushroomed striking surface. I wish I had taken a before pic!



When dealing with mushroomed metal it is better to cut more off than have to deal with cracks later. My initial shaping had to be redone because some cracks revealed themselves while I was grinding. Trying to save metal was a false economy of my time.



Forge thick and grind thin they say. With the grinder and now the belt sander at 36 grit this is shorter work than it used to be with a 4.5" angle grinder.



Gave it profile, sanding and then I hardened it in the forge and tempered it. Then final sand and some polish

Here is the flat side angled toward you. Not sure on the final profile so I left some meat on the sides I may ultimately grind off.



Curved side pointing away. Gave it some polish. If it works well at this profile I'll go back and polish it more, otherwise it may get trimmed a bit first.



Did a test run on a rejected raised elbow. Ignore the wrinkles in the unturned side. It got chucked early in the process and didn't get much shaping. I have learned a bunch since this first try. Dug it back out for the test since it had the right shape to tell me if the stake would get into the spots I need it for. Seems to work!



Tonight I am going to turn the edge of the test piece completely with the wire and then test my roll offsetting tool.

Roll offsetting tool you ask? Made this after seeing what Wade and Tom use for late period rolls. The tool takes an edge that has been rolled over as a flat bend (usually over wire) and allows you to drive the material that is folded over flush with the underside of the rest of the piece of armour. This bumps the roll edge up so that it sticks up proud of the rest of the piece. Theirs are made of Lynch stake stock but I made mine out of a railroad reinforcing plate bolt that Gawin brought over.

Started out pretty rough. They had been lying about for some time before he found them. Sparked nicely though. Forged down (and up) the round head into a more flatish square.



The sharpy showns the area that will be removed. The wings on the side allow it to do curves.



Start of the cut. I may have used a 4.5" angle grinder to start but I often use rat tail rasps on metal. They are usually pretty hard and they cut quickly. I made sure that the piece was totally annealed before starting the shaping by leaving it in the forge after I was done with the rough hammer forging. Turned it off and let the piece reach room temp on its own time schedule.



Here the sides are removed. Mostly by file but some dremel work to round the edges that I could not reach. In this pic the center is still a bit too much of a channel. I've turned that inside edge more round. You just have to keep it a smaller radius than your smallest curve on the work piece.



This is a test piece of the same thickness I am using for the final piece. Turned almost completely flat. Just enough space to slip the wire in. Then trap it in with a few taps. I used a thin bladed screwdriver to make sure it is flush with the edge.


The ability for the tool to do its job well is closely tied to the size throat it has combined with the material thickness and wire thickness. Any change of these can change the way the material is packed into the channel and formed. Too much material and it squishes out the edge. Some you can grind off but too much and you might grind through the steel.

Place the roll, outside down and hammer the inside rolled edge/wire into the channel. Might take more than one pass. If thick material heat can encourage it.





This is the final product. How high the roll sits above the rest of the surface is a function of how deep the channel is. I know, duh. But I thought I would mention it since no amount of pounding will make it taller than that. The light scallops on the finished surface are from the edge of the shaped tooth there in the middle of the tool. Those grind out pretty easily though rounding that edge with care when you are making the tool helps mitigate them.

Made some progress a while back and hadn't gotten a chance to post it.

Here is a nice blurry pic of the center pin for the leathers with the cotter pin to keep it in place.



A pic of the final product unstrapped.



Next to the venerable elbow I am replacing. As you can see they were very flat in the center of the cone. Tended to dent there and cause bruises with impact on the bone right there. That is one of the reasons why most of the ones from period have a crest there to reinforce it and give room for the important body parts.



Next up Buckles!

Started on the buckles last night. Based on one that Wade has on a very minimal elbow he recently acquired. It has some nice detailed filework and some stamping on the steel plate.





Cut a strip from 12 guage sheet scrap. Laid out lines where the corners of the inside of the strap hole would go. Centerpunched for holes that came close to the corners and drilled. Without taking pictures.

Here is a shot with the center knocked out with some chisel work. I laid out buckles on each end of the strip so that I could work them easily in the vise. I'll cut them free to finish the last side.



When laying something you will do a lot of filing to it is helpful to choose proportions that fit your available files. Makes for faster work only having to worry about keeping the file in plane with the work.



Rounding the two ends of each buckle started by turning the area octagon in cross section.

Then I used a round chainsaw file to cut the scallops on the flanks. Start small to center then hawg out the waste.





Then used a triangular file to notch in the outsides of the scallop work. I need to take one more pass to tighten up the ridge line.



Corner notches added.





Cut free and last end rounded. It helped to use a thin needle file to define to ends of the round bar with a valley like they did on the originals. I need to go over the round ends with a little sandpaper to remove the facets.



Here is the buckle on my drawing of the mounting location and strap. I needed to wrap my brain around how the buckle plate and the Y strap were going to act together. It will sit on the inside of the arm side. This will allow the long strap to go through the buckle and the loose end tuck in between the Y.



Next up buckle plate and straps!

Johann, very pretty!

I got to see the elbows at Wades get together. Very nice work.

Vermillion wrote:Johann, very pretty!

I got to see the elbows at Wades get together. Very nice work.

Thanks Chris! They have been a fun project. I'm very lucky to have Wade near by to work with the real thing. I just need to wrap this work up and start using them.

It was great to see you at Wades get together and talk about armour and see your new swords.

John,

I tossed you some measurements from the real buckle. Now we will see how you guessed since I didn't send them earlier. My fault.

Wade

No sweat Wade! Thanks for sending them. For everyone else playing along at home here they are:

.68 overall outside width.
app. .105-.110 width of the side of the buckle. It appears to be app. the same thickness, so 12g is like right at the perfect thickness.
Result, app. 1/32 under 1/2 in. on the inside.
tongue is app. 3/32 wide where it wraps around the buckle tapering down to a point. Basically made from what appears to be sheet. Final thickest spot I can get to appears to be app. .060.

Mine started at 5/8" wide ish and mic out as .650. Not too far off for scaling from a picture on my phone The inner opening is about .40, so a little less of an opening. I thought they looked just a little bit square.

I could widen the opening but since I have already defined the round areas of the buckle I think I will let it ride.

I have some nails that mic to 0.60 that should work for tongues. I'll form them the way you suggested.

Thanks for the dimensions!

Alrighty! Here are the details in finishing the buckles and getting the leathers mounted.

Making the tongue of the buckles out of nails that were the right width. Flattened out the "axle" side and turned them with jewelry pliers then bumped the curve in them on the step of my anvil.



Then filed them flat and attached them to the hoop.



After talking with Wade and Tom I think I would do them out of sheet scraps next time. Easier to work with and less steps making them... not round!

Buckle plates were next. Made out of 22ga. This was a little thin but I didn't have any 20ga and 18ga was way too macho for it. Drew center line then center punched and the whitney punched. Fast work this thin!



Squared the centers and chiseled the outside flanks where the buckle rides. I did almost all the measuring on the buckles and plates by eye rather than with measuring tools to keep them looking like humans made them. We (or maybe just I) get caught up in precision when making reproductions. They certainly didn't worry about silly little things like symmetry or equal distances!



The buckle is a little on the small side (more about that later) and I wanted the buckle plate to be as wide as possible to support the buckle so I curled the rear side of the plate to get it to pass through the outer D of the buckle. This pic is of the test piece



Here is one buckle with the back fan flattened down, slightly squished and the file work started. One of the cool details of the original is the half round file work directly behind the two tabs that parallel the tongue. It provides a neat termination to the chisel work notches done on the earlier steps. Very quick and much better than fussing with keeping those edges square or worrying about chisel overrun.

Here is the final buckle with the three lobes at the rear and the punch work. Made a quick punch out of a hardened masonry nail. I also made a small fork tool to tuck the buckle plate against the D without crimping the tongue.



The two together. Photobucket is randomly rotating the pictures from Landscape to Portrait. Very annoying.



Here they are blued and mounted. Used the slit leathers trick for them to be easily replaceable. No way I want to play the grind a rivet game on the inner curve.







I don't have a pic of the tool I use as a helper when setting the rivets but it is a fork the thickness of the leather you are using. It sits between the rivet head and the work to prevent the rivet from being drawn in too much to admit the leather when peened. Here it is setting proud of the interior.



Countersunk (before setting) and then driven with a set to round off the outer surface of the rivet head.



When I went to Wades to look at his new Waistcoat BP I drug the elbows along and here is the buckle next to the original. Not a perfect repro, since I eyeballed the measurements, but I am not mad. We'll call it "inspired by".



I am happy with the way the proportions work with the elbows. Carries a 3/8" strap. Any thicker and it would bug me right there. It does not keep the elbow on my arm, the strap from rerebrace to vambrace does that. All that strap does is keep it from rattling around and on the point of my elbow.

I'll get some pics with the rest of the arm harness later. Of course making one new part makes the rest look like crap! The other parts will be switched out after I build a cuirass, post Pennsic.

Holy Crap! I am jealous these are sooo nice!

John really does seem to be having fun with these things. Lots of little things from my collection coming back to life in things he will be wearing around on the field.

Cool.

Wade

I really wish more of us took this approach, although my 16th century kit is still in the planning and roughing out phase my previous suits have all been aimed at creating a much more accurate representation of 16th century armour. One of the biggest issues I have with the SCA in general is that we often present ourselves as scholars and academics. However, when I go to a demo there are always a few "pajama warriors" off talking to the crowd about the character they play in a fictional world. I digress, I really appreciate this thread because it shows how detailed and intricate something as simple as a couter really is. I cant wait to see them strapped and set against the rest of the kit.