Helmets

James the Baker · Post by **James the Baker** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:25 am

Hello everybody.I have a question and I see by the other postings that this is the place to get intelligent responses.I am part of a newly established group of steel fighters and one of our Marshals who is handling the combat rules is intent on not permitting spun-top helms,saying that the process of their contruction makes them unsafe.He insists that another style,where the helmet is made up of halves that are welded together,is the only style that should be allowed.I know little about the subject and would appreciate any input.Thanks in advance.

Samuel Lee Jernigen · Post by **Samuel Lee Jernigen** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:14 am

Spun tops are not weaker than halfed helms by the nature of thier construction. just ugly...

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:44 am

Find a minimum gauge of mild steel that your helms MUST conform to...then measure the thinest parts of the finished helms. In the case of spun domes (especially the badly made ones) this is in the stretched "valleys" or ruts left by the shaping process. In the case of helms made in halves it is at the extreme of the ddished halves (and in the case of badly made ones, at the weld line that has been ground back until it is 20gauge). A spring claiper measure will do the trick nicely...And will give your group the only well informed marshals in medieval combat.

The primary problem with spun tops is that they are not head shaped...and cannot be made so without going to more effort then that required to construct a helm properly.

Having saiid that....it is also possible to build abismaly ugly two-part-dome helms.

My advise for going with the two parters is to avoid the patterns that have a "dart" or wedge cut out of them (you lose a lot of metal that can be shape to better effect and you get sort of "bunny ears" on the sides of the helm.

Good luck with your group.

Oh yeah...have a really together marshalette....come up with consistent rules on the amount of edge damage (incidental serations) that are allowed on the blades of swords and things before they are declared unsafe for combat.
Helms are all very well...but half the times I have played with metal weapons groups they have been playing with swords that resembled scrap-toothed saws...And that is just vicious on cloth kit like gambesons!

Sasha

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 12:48 pm

By steel, do you mean fencing schlaeger? Or period swords at slower speed?

Sasha, at a highland games I once had the honor to practice a bit with two accomplished swordsmen. I insist on fighting with a heavier "military" bladed rapier, while they were using schlaegers to avoid damage to their display swords. However, their schlaegers had seen a lot of use, and were saw-toothed - effectively creating points on the blade supported by no more than a quarter inch of metal. While the two of them were showing off, a routine I believe (but incredibly fast-paced), the foible broke off of one sword. No one was hurt.

Using a file to smooth the burrs off the edges, not sharpen the blade, is a necessity. Also, run a bar of parafin or something similar along the edge before a bout. I have convinced myself that it helps reduce snagging.

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IdÃ«val
The Huntsman of
I-NossÃ« LÃºmÃ«vanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

kwarmour · Post by **kwarmour** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:29 pm

I believe it is period to parry with the flat of the blade and not the edge, to preserve the sharpness of the edge. Maybe it would prevent the blades from getting saw-toothed in SCA combat.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:09 am

KWARMOUR, Beware, be very ware indeed!

This is one of *The Topics* which gets the napalm flying.

To be perfectly truthful, no one knows exactlty what the "ideal" form of block in period combat was (edge or flat). The one thing we do know is that a block that kept your head on your shoulders was seen as being pretty universally ideal!

I believe that there were schools that taught both flat and edge parries. Evidence supports me in this and I can see that depending on the sword in fashion a flat-blocking technique could either be highly desirable or utterly foolhardy ("excuse me, sir. Could you refraim from hacking at me while I go and borrow another sword, this one seems to now be three inches long").

So, do not start the "authority" voice when saying they DID only block on the flat. The result will be a lot of people calling you a prat.

Second point.
The SCA uses rattan swords in its heavy combat. Blocking on the edge of a mostly round object has remarkably similar value as blocking on the "flat" of a mostly round object.

SCA fencing with schlaeger blades is a little different (we all know fencers are a little *different*). Just like in period....many people put forth their "wisdom" (see also "opinions") about whether blocking edge or side-on is the best approach. Since nobody has yet gone for, say 4 years, without getting at least one "kill" against them in fencing regardless of their opinion....I think the jury will remain "out" on what the "One True Way" should be.

Sasha

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:51 am

LoL Sasha how many fencers do we have here, i mean fencers only, or fence most of their time? Beware of that napalm its some hot stuff

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"As you hear the teuton war cry roll through the hills,you will then see the bear"
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear
Herzog von Sachsen

James the Baker · Post by **James the Baker** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:46 pm

HOORAY!This may not seem like much of an accomplishment and I feel like an idiot for not having figured it out before now but I can respond.Thank all of you for you responses and also for bringing up a valid point about blade serration.We fight with long or hand-and-a-half swords mostly and in general we try to parry with our flats but this is not always practical.My sword has actually been nicknamed "Tetanus" because of the cumulative damage of 3 years of hard use (nicks and rust that won't come clean).This is a topic I will be bringing up at our meeting this weekend.
Thanks again everyone

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Harold the Bear:
LoL Sasha how many fencers do we have here, i mean fencers only, or fence most of their time? Beware of that napalm its some hot stuff

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

50/50.. maybe 60/40 towards heavy

I am a gallant of my barony, which is a fencing thing, given at the completion of a set of trials that test your medieval knowledge and fencing ability. I am also a full time squire. I get 2 or 3 fight practices in a week because I do both.

Fritz the peasant

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:51 pm

and I didn't even answer the original question

you can look here to get helmet halves at roughly the same price as spun tops
http://members.nbci.com/armourstuff/

Fritz the peasant